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David
I dare you to try
Joined: 27 Jul 2003 Location: Andromeda
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Post subject: All roads lead to McHale? | |
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Harrysz's 1977 grand final thread sent me off on a tangent just now: it occurred to me that, of the four most prominent non-Collingwood players who have gone on to coach the club (including our last three premiership coaches), each had a direct relationship to one of the others: Tom Hafey coached Mick Malthouse in the former's final year at Richmond, and Leigh Matthews coached Craig McRae to three premierships at Brisbane.
Of course, once we're talking about who coaches were coached by in their playing days, you can look at further links in the chain. Hafey, for instance, was coached in his first few years at Richmond by Albert Pannam, who of course was a champion Collingwood player in the days when Jock McHale was coaching us. Finding the same end point for Leigh Matthews was trickier: towards the end of his career at Hawthorn, he was coached by Allan Jeans, who in turn was coached in his final year at St Kilda by Jim Francis, who as a Hawthorn player in the 1930s was coached by Bill Twomey, who played for Collingwood from 1918 to 1922.
So I've set myself a challenge: is it possible to find a link back to McHale for every Collingwood coach? It seems the answer is yes:
• Craig McRae: Leigh Matthews (Brisbane, 1999–2004) --> Allan Jeans (Hawthorn, 1981–1985) --> Jim Francis (St Kilda, 1959) --> Bill Twomey (Hawthorn, 1933–1934) --> Jock McHale (Collingwood, 1918–1922)
• Robert Harvey: Tim Watson (St Kilda, 1999–2000) --> Kevin Sheedy (Essendon, 1981–1994) --> Tom Hafey (Richmond, 1967–1976) --> Albert Pannam --> (Richmond, 1953–1955) --> Jock McHale (Collingwood, 1933–1945)
• Nathan Buckley: Tony Shaw (Collingwood, 1996–1999) --> Bob Rose (Collingwood 1985–1986) --> Jock McHale (Collingwood, 1946–1949)
• Mick Malthouse: Tom Hafey (Richmond, 1976) --> Albert Pannam --> (Richmond, 1953–1955) --> Jock McHale (Collingwood, 1933–1945)
• Tony Shaw: Bob Rose (Collingwood 1985–1986) --> Jock McHale (Collingwood, 1946–1949)
• Leigh Matthews: Allan Jeans (Hawthorn, 1981–1985) --> Jim Francis (St Kilda, 1959) --> Bill Twomey (Hawthorn, 1933–1934) --> Jock McHale (Collingwood, 1918–1922)
• Bob Rose: Jock McHale (Collingwood, 1946–1949)
• John Cahill: Fos Williams (Port Adelaide SANFL, 1962–1973) --> Johnny Taylor (West Adelaide SANFL, 1948–1949) --> Charlie Gaudion (West Adelaide SANFL, 1940) --> Paddy Scanlan (North Melbourne, 1935–1937) --> Charles Pannam (South Melbourne, 1923–1926) --> Jock McHale (Collingwood, 1917–1922)
• Mick Erwin: Phonse Kyne (Collingwood, 1962–1963) --> Jock McHale (Collingwood, 1934–1949)
• Tom Hafey: Albert Pannam --> (Richmond, 1953–1955) --> Jock McHale (Collingwood, 1933–1945)
• Murray Weideman: Phonse Kyne (Collingwood, 1953–1963) --> Jock McHale (Collingwood, 1934–1949)
• Neil Mann: Jock McHale (Collingwood, 1945–1949)
• Ron Richards: Jock McHale (Collingwood, 1947–1949)
• Phonse Kyne: Jock McHale (Collingwood, 1934–1949)
I guess the next question is: is there any coach of the modern era who hasn't been (indirectly) influenced by McHale somewhere along the line? And how far back would you have to go to find a coach who hasn't been? _________________ All watched over by machines of loving grace
Last edited by David on Mon Oct 23, 2023 7:29 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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RudeBoy
Joined: 28 Nov 2005
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You ought to get out more David!
Seriously, that's an amazing feat of forensic research mate. |
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David
I dare you to try
Joined: 27 Jul 2003 Location: Andromeda
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RudeBoy wrote: | You ought to get out more David! |
You're probably not wrong
I'd be willing to bet that this works for pretty much every coach (post, say, 1950 or so, or perhaps even quite a bit earlier than that). Here are a few other random coaches I looked up who find their way back to McHale eventually:
Ron Barassi: Norm Smith (Melbourne, 1953–1964) --> Checker Hughes (Melbourne, 1935–1948) --> Dan Minogue (Richmond, 1920–1923) --> Jock McHale (Collingwood, 1912–1916)
David Parkin: Peter O'Donoghue (Hawthorn, 1966) --> Roy Cazaly (Hawthorn, 1942–1943) --> Charles Pannam (South Melbourne, 1923–1927) --> Jock McHale (Collingwood, 1917–1922)
John Kennedy Sr: Jack Hale (Hawthorn, 1952–1959) --> Dan Minogue (Carlton, 1933–1934) --> Jock McHale (Collingwood, 1912–1916) _________________ All watched over by machines of loving grace |
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Piesnchess
piesnchess
Joined: 09 Jun 2008
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Yes, and yet, yet, the fuckingAFL still, still wont erect a statue outside the MCG to the greatest of all Coaches, Jock McHale, got one there for friggin Hungfry Bartlett for Chrissakes, but none for Jock. what a disgrace, cannot understand that, just like the bloody Team of last Century , not one Magpie in the side, not one. _________________ Poverty exists not because we cannot feed the poor, but because we cannot satisfy the rich.
Chess and Vodka are born brothers. - Russian proverb. |
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Damien
Me Noah & Flynn @ the G
Joined: 21 Jan 1999 Location: Croydon Vic
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….and for his services to CUB! _________________ 'Collingwood are the Bradmans of Football'
The Herald - 1930 |
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LaurieHolden
Floreat Gymnorhina tyrannica
Joined: 22 Feb 2009 Location: Victoria Park
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I love a deep dive. It's like a bloodstock pedigree.
When Collingwood won the 1953 Premiership to end a premiership drought of 17 years, McHale was overwhelmed with emotion. The next day he suffered a heart attack, and he died on 4 October at his home in Coburg.
Noted Collingwood benefactor John Wren suffered a heart attack while watching the same grand final match, and he died on 26 October 1953. _________________ "The Club's not Jock, Ted and Gerry" (& Eddie)
2023 AFL Premiers |
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stui magpie
Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.
Joined: 03 May 2005 Location: In flagrante delicto
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Very nice work David, can you make it work for Chris Fagan who never playerd VFL/AFL or Brendan Bolton? _________________ Every dead body on Mt Everest was once a highly motivated person, so maybe just calm the **** down. |
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Piethagoras' Theorem
the hypotenuse, is always a cakewalk
Joined: 29 May 2006
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Nice work, David, I'm surprised Kevin Bacon wasn't linked in there somehow _________________ Formally frankiboy and FrankieGoesToCollingwood. |
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David
I dare you to try
Joined: 27 Jul 2003 Location: Andromeda
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stui magpie wrote: | Very nice work David, can you make it work for Chris Fagan who never playerd VFL/AFL or Brendan Bolton? |
Not sure, though I'm encouraged by the fact that I managed to link John Cahill (who only ever played SANFL, almost entirely for one coach) back.
I guess I'd need their TFL player stats and then honour boards for the club/s in question. I used AFL Tables for most of this, so it certainly gets a lot harder once you move away from the VFL/AFL! _________________ All watched over by machines of loving grace |
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David
I dare you to try
Joined: 27 Jul 2003 Location: Andromeda
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Okay, Bolton wasn't too difficult – he played for the Tasmanian VFL team from 2001 to 2002 when they were coached by Matthew Armstrong, who played for Fitzroy under Robert Shaw (1991–1994), who played for Essendon under Des Tuddenham (1974–1975), who played under Phonse Kyne (1962–1963), who was coached by McHale.
Fagan played for Hobart in the TANFL under Mal Pascoe (1978–1979), who played for Essendon under Dick Reynolds (1953–1958), who played for Essendon under Jack Baggott (1936–1939), who played for Richmond under Checker Hughes (1927–1932), who played for Richmond under Dan Minogue (1920–1923), who played under McHale.
(Kind of feel like I'm reciting genealogies in the Old Testament ) _________________ All watched over by machines of loving grace |
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David
I dare you to try
Joined: 27 Jul 2003 Location: Andromeda
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One of the reasons this is feasible is that Jock McHale coached a lot of players who went on to become coaches themselves. By my count, 21 Collingwood players who represented the club from 1912 to 1949 went on to coach, representing every VFL club of the era with the exception of Essendon. So, while hard to quantify through mere statistics alone, his influence on the competition and development of coaching was obviously immense.
Here's the full list of coaches who played under McHale directly:
Max Hislop (Richmond 1920)
Dan Minogue (Richmond 1920–1925, Hawthorn 1926–1927, Carlton 1929–1934, St Kilda 1935–1937, Fitzroy 1940–1942)
Percy Wilson (Melbourne 1921–1923)
Charles Pannam (South Melbourne 1923–1928)
Con McCarthy (Footscray 1925)
Harry Saunders (Footscray 1926)
Charles Tyson (North Melbourne 1928–1929)
John Harris (Hawthorn 1930–1931)
Jim Jackson (Hawthorn 1932)
Bill Twomey (Hawthorn 1933–1934)
Percy Rowe (Fitzroy 1935, Carlton 1937)
Syd Coventry (Footscray 1935–1937)
Charlie Dibbs (Geelong 1936)
Jack Knight (St Kilda 1941)
Jim Crowe (Footscray 1947)
Fred Froude (St Kilda 1948–1950)
Phonse Kyne (Collingwood 1950–1963)
Albert Pannam (Richmond 1953–1955)
Neil Mann (Collingwood 1960, 1967, 1972–1974)
Bob Rose (Collingwood 1964–1971, Footscray 1972–1975, Collingwood 1985–1986)
Ron Richards (Collingwood 1974)
I haven't had a chance to confirm, but it appears that the last senior coach who played at VFL level to not be able to be linked back to McHale this way is Gordon Rattray, who coached Fitzroy from 1936 to 1939. The last one of all might be Hugh Thomas, who coached St Kilda from 1944 to 1945 and never played at VFL level – though you'll never guess who he served as assistant coach under prior to that: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hugh_Thomas_(coach) _________________ All watched over by machines of loving grace
Last edited by David on Tue Oct 24, 2023 12:48 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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think better
Joined: 16 May 2005 Location: Adelaide
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David wrote: | Okay, Bolton wasn't too difficult – he played for the Tasmanian VFL team from 2001 to 2002 when they were coached by Matthew Armstrong, who played for Fitzroy under Robert Shaw (1991–1994), who played for Essendon under Des Tuddenham (1974–1975), who played under Phonse Kyne (1962–1963), who was coached by McHale.
Fagan played for Hobart in the TANFL under Mal Pascoe (1978–1979), who played for Essendon under Dick Reynolds (1953–1958), who played for Essendon under Jack Baggott (1936–1939), who played for Richmond under Checker Hughes (1927–1932), who played for Richmond under Dan Minogue (1920–1923), who played under McHale.
(Kind of feel like I'm reciting genealogies in the Old Testament ) |
More like Fancestory I reckon _________________ I think therefore I think - I think |
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Gerry Cooper
Joined: 23 Feb 2012
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Dan Minogue certainly got around. _________________ We've all heard that a million monkeys banging on a million typewriters will eventually reproduce the entire works of Shakespeare. Now, thanks to the Internet, we know this is not true.� |
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David
I dare you to try
Joined: 27 Jul 2003 Location: Andromeda
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Yeah, I think he was kind of the Malcolm Blight of his day – though he certainly got a lot of mileage from his first two years with Richmond as captain-coach, when he won two flags! He never won another premiership after that (he coached Carlton to a losing grand final in 1932, but that was it).
People who know their early Collingwood history will know how much of a villain Minogue was seen as by supporters after turning his back on the club after World War I. The ire Jack Ginnivan's been receiving from Collingwood supporters in the past week seems pretty mild in comparison!
https://forever.collingwoodfc.com.au/players/dan-minogue/ _________________ All watched over by machines of loving grace |
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stui magpie
Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.
Joined: 03 May 2005 Location: In flagrante delicto
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Nice work. What about all the other current AFL coaches? Is there a link there for all of them? _________________ Every dead body on Mt Everest was once a highly motivated person, so maybe just calm the **** down. |
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