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David
I dare you to try
Joined: 27 Jul 2003 Location: Andromeda
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What'sinaname wrote: | ^ get your head out of textbooks and in to the real world
The countries with highest GDP per capita do so through two means - mining or tax incentives.
Ireland, Luxembourg, Switzerland, Singapore
Norway, Australia, Qatar, Iceland
The exception is the USA. |
Now do median. Guessing a few of those (Qatar, Singapore) have a slightly different spread of wealth... _________________ All watched over by machines of loving grace |
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What'sinaname
Joined: 29 May 2010 Location: Living rent free
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^ By median, we will have 4 that rely on mining, 2 low tax and 2 other developed economies.
Lux
UAE
Norway
Switzerland
USA
Canada
Australia
Sweden _________________ Fighting against the objectification of woman. |
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Skids
Quitting drinking will be one of the best choices you make in your life.
Joined: 11 Sep 2007 Location: Joined 3/6/02 . Member #175
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I can tell you a very big issue for mining companies here in WA is water.
Dewatering at some of these huge Iron Ore mines is causing major issues and many of them are on the verge, if not already, of exceeding their license arrangements.
I'm on a site now where our bore water is saltier than sea water and has a massive iron and manganese content. We're just in the process of commissioning a $5 million dollar plant to deal.wuth the issue.
I envisage massive desal plants on the coast piping potable water hundreds of kilometres to supply these mines. _________________ Don't count the days, make the days count. |
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pietillidie
Joined: 07 Jan 2005
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What'sinaname wrote: | ^ get your head out of textbooks and in to the real world |
Now that's a bizarre thing to say to someone who has lived in five countries, travelled to dozens of countries, lived and worked in 4 countries, and has consulted to dozens of companies transnationally.
<snip – please refrain from making personal remarks about other posters. Thanks, BBMods.>
What'sinaname wrote: | The countries with highest GDP per capita do so through two means - mining or tax incentives.
Ireland, Luxembourg, Switzerland, Singapore
Norway, Australia, Qatar, Iceland
The exception is the USA. |
What sort of sub-statistical assembly is that? Everyone knows the wealthy group of countries has a mix of historical variants, so they never ever draw general conclusions with reference to oddball examples, and especially tiny examples.
As discussed above, Australia (and Canada) were mineral-rich and had the most advanced civilisation of the time air-lifted straight from Great Britain, obscuring the problem. To tease out just how rich these economies could be with sensible levels of natural resource dependency, which is the task at hand, the known effects of mining need to be applied.
Moreover, as tiny economies, the tax havens operate as adjuncts to the heavy lifters like France, Germany and the UK and the US. They do all the work that the novelty economies parasite off.
No one who understands economics would say: "Let's separate the weirdo economies from the rest and use them to form general conclusions about economies". You eliminate or smooth outliers, not reify them, for goodness' sake.
Or, to put it simply for you: Fred's grade of 80% is a worse relative performance than your grade at 55%; Fred simply has far more under the hood and should be doing better than 80%. You, on the other hand, are peaking at 55%.
Economists only ever draw general conclusions from general data sets. Sorry, but fact.
<snip – let's try to keep things civil please.> _________________ In the end the rain comes down, washes clean the streets of a blue sky town.
Help Nick's: http://www.magpies.net/nick/bb/fundraising.htm |
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Skids
Quitting drinking will be one of the best choices you make in your life.
Joined: 11 Sep 2007 Location: Joined 3/6/02 . Member #175
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What does it say for our training...
Currently mining directly employs 189,000 in almost 400 mines around the country.
In 2012 194,000 were employed, with a population 3 million less than today.
_________________ Don't count the days, make the days count. |
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David
I dare you to try
Joined: 27 Jul 2003 Location: Andromeda
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^ That just suggests to me that the transition is underway. _________________ All watched over by machines of loving grace |
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pietillidie
Joined: 07 Jan 2005
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^A transition from a pitiful few to a pitiful fewer. It's a joke how people dumbly gobble up the propaganda. Just how could Australian workers survive without mining?!!
This next one's even 'better', if that's the right word for something this disturbing:
In other words, mining is a labour black hole that pisses a ridiculous amount of capital against the wall for a pultry handful of jobs. Even worse, a mis-located, fluctuating pultry handful of jobs. How TF did you lot get so conned into handing over all that legislation and all that infrastructure and all that clean environment to such a job killer that dilutes labour returns to capital? The data supports my assumptions to a frightening extent.
As I say, when you're doing better than shitehole economies, you can lose track of how much you're underperforming vis-a-vis your natural upper bound, especially when brainwashed with nonsense.
Edit: Found a PNG of the second chart. _________________ In the end the rain comes down, washes clean the streets of a blue sky town.
Help Nick's: http://www.magpies.net/nick/bb/fundraising.htm
Last edited by pietillidie on Fri Nov 25, 2022 2:11 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Skids
Quitting drinking will be one of the best choices you make in your life.
Joined: 11 Sep 2007 Location: Joined 3/6/02 . Member #175
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I don't think it's 'workers surviving without mining', more so the Australian economy (covid lockdowns and handouts say 'hello').
Record high for resources export revenue
Trade data released today by the Australian Bureau of Statistics shows resources export revenue reached a new record high of $351 billion in 2021 – up 21 per cent from the previous record set in 2019.
Resources contributed 68 per cent of total Australian export revenue in 2021.
Iron ore contributed $154.2 billion, up 32 per cent from 2020 and a new record high. Coal contributed $62 billion, up 43 per cent from 2020. Aluminium (including alumina and bauxite) was $13.7 billion, up 15 per cent from 2020 and copper (metal and concentrates) contributed $12.1 billion, up 14 per cent from 2020 and a new record high. Gold contributed $25.9 billion.
This incredible growth in revenue has also delivered Australia its largest ever trade surplus ($123 billion) during the COVID-19 pandemic, at a time when it needed economic stimulus the most.
This record growth demonstrates the importance of Australia’s mining industry to our economy.
https://www.minerals.org.au/news/record-high-resources-export-revenue#:~:text=About%20the%20Minerals%20Council%20of%20Australia&text=Trade%20data%20released%20today%20by,previous%20record%20set%20in%202019.
For the few people mining employees directly (indirectly the number would be trebled at a minimum) it contributes over 10% to the nations GDP.
Not to mention, it's where all the minerals required for the climate alarmists 'Green' energy comes from, no, the; lithium, Nickel, manganese, cobalt etc aren't found in rocking horse droppings, or a big bucket at the end of the rainbow, they're actually dug out of the ground... and Australia has plenty of them.
Mining will continue to grow and be the engine room for Australia's economy for many decades, if not centuries to come.
The 'shift' David, isn't so much about a change of direction, rather the growth of automation.
I was simply referencing the numbers with regards to labour shortages in general. _________________ Don't count the days, make the days count. |
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stui magpie
Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.
Joined: 03 May 2005 Location: In flagrante delicto
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Good points Skids, Ptiddy, I don't understand your arguments and you seem to be contradicting yourself. You claim that Mining pillages intellect and suffocates other jobs, yet it's a relatively small employer despite it's importance to the economy.
You could put Agriculture and fishing in the same basket based on your graph, that is also a relatively low employer but vital. We grow our own food and get to export the rest, bringing valuable dollars to the economy.
Countries should play to their strengths. The UK is a shitty cold rock off the coast of Europe smaller than the state of Victoria with nothing going for it, It's a net importer of food and energy because it can't produce enough for itself, whereas we can and export the surplus. Australia is rich in natural resources that the world needs, you'd need to be clinically insane not to take advantage of that.
Having a nation of knowledge workers might work in a small country with no natural resources, but someone has to produce essential minerals and food. _________________ Every dead body on Mt Everest was once a highly motivated person, so maybe just calm the **** down. |
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What'sinaname
Joined: 29 May 2010 Location: Living rent free
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^ apparently all those employed in social assistance will eliminate the deficit. _________________ Fighting against the objectification of woman. |
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pietillidie
Joined: 07 Jan 2005
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^No , it's not a good point. You still don't understand how economics works. You are still wrongly proposing that things are as they are because they can't be anything else, not because the country fell hook, line and sinker for nonsense when there are much better alternatives.
The key economics concept here is opportunity cost. If you put every single dollar that has gone into mining — directly through investment, indirectly through infrastructure, handouts, labour misallocation, environmental damage, global warming mitigation delay, political capture — into other economic activities, the return to the nation would be infinitely higher.
When you look at x billion dollars your eyes light up. Like economists, I'm not impressed because I see this:
(x billion dollars (minus massive national costs)) vs
x billion dollars in industries with vastly superior multipliers and national benefit
If Australia shifted all of that capital into tech (e.g., IT; ag tech; biotech; med tech; life sciences), the real return would be ridiculously greater.
It's a circular problem. Australia has excellent core sciences and engineering but the government is captured by a lying, backroom-dealing, inherently corrupt industry. Sure, every industry is corrupt, but once again it's about percentages, with almost every industry vastly less corrupt than a low-competition high-rent industry like mining.
Mining is an Australian strength because it has been made an Australian strength. It's not the bloody 1700s when all you could do in an economy sat in the field next door, which is the absurdist way you're talking.
Most industries I've listed could just as easily be Australian strengths, but you actually have to be diligent enough and responsible enough to divert all that infrastructure spending from some useless spot in a desert somewhere to R&D tax incentives and university commercialisation. If these clueless idiots did that twenty years ago like anyone responsible with brains would've done, those billions would be in other sectors.
But these dimwits can't think longer than a handout in their electorate next week. The part that's not backroom corruption is a complete national marshmallow test fail. And they lie through their teeth when they fail to deduct all of the costs I've mentioned in this thread and pretend those billions are as they seem at face value. They are simply conning simple people who just see that number but can't account for the rest.
As for the job argument of course it's a black hole. People who should be in other sectors with highly publicised labour shortages, whether be trades, construction, healthcare, education, tech, agriculture or whatever, are misallocated into this parasitic, low multiplying, extremely nationally costly industry.
There is absolutely no contradiction between this argument and the fact that mining has a rubbish capital-to-employment ratio. This simply means that it does nothing for Australian workers compared to virtually any other industry you care to invest in, while still attracting people away from industries with labour shortages.
Then, you could take the cream off the top of mining, making it pay for all those externalities and opportunity costs I mention, as the bargaining power shifts back to the nation and overseas capital bids far more for those rights. But it's all too difficult for the lazy, corrupt or outright hoodwinked.
Exactly as was the case with global warming denial, some of you guys are simply copying and pasting mining industry propaganda. Again and again and again, all the way from Iraq to Trump, and always wrong. _________________ In the end the rain comes down, washes clean the streets of a blue sky town.
Help Nick's: http://www.magpies.net/nick/bb/fundraising.htm
Last edited by pietillidie on Thu Nov 24, 2022 9:07 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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stui magpie
Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.
Joined: 03 May 2005 Location: In flagrante delicto
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Nah dude, with respect, you've been gone from Aus too long _________________ Every dead body on Mt Everest was once a highly motivated person, so maybe just calm the **** down. |
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pietillidie
Joined: 07 Jan 2005
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^Nice try, but pretty silly given the arguments and data are all basic knowledge. Like Skids, Whatsinaname and many otherwise ntelligent people who keep getting things wrong, you're far smarter than this, but keep reacting against people who annoy you, stubbornly digging in for eternity rather than adapting to new information. _________________ In the end the rain comes down, washes clean the streets of a blue sky town.
Help Nick's: http://www.magpies.net/nick/bb/fundraising.htm |
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stui magpie
Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.
Joined: 03 May 2005 Location: In flagrante delicto
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Nice try yourself, but you're a knowledge worker and that's your bias. So was I but I acknowledge that we need blue collar workers as the foundation. _________________ Every dead body on Mt Everest was once a highly motivated person, so maybe just calm the **** down. |
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pietillidie
Joined: 07 Jan 2005
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^Huh? It's clearly the complete, absolute 100% opposite! As per the chart above, mining is rubbish at creating jobs, including non-knowledge jobs. Even worse, there's a shortage of workers in stable, long-term, sustainable non-knowledge work including the trades, construction, healthcare, agriculture and high-tech manufacturing. Mining is plainly a job destroyer for non-knowledge workers because its capital-employment ratio is pathetic.
Even worse, it's a misallocator because jobs it provides are unstable, subject to booms and busts, and remotely located.
And it's not the 00s; all good jobs involve technology. The entire decade has been defined by the merging of software and hardware, whether in healthcare, agriculture, construction or manufacturing.
Anyhow, forget it. I like you guys too much to keep going on about it. _________________ In the end the rain comes down, washes clean the streets of a blue sky town.
Help Nick's: http://www.magpies.net/nick/bb/fundraising.htm |
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