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think positive
Side By Side
Joined: 30 Jun 2005 Location: somewhere
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stui magpie wrote: | Mugwump wrote: | ^ actually what victims want is an abstract consideration, but a minor one. The point of justice is due punishment of responsible individuals as a mark of the boundaries of right. If criminals are to be punished in accordance with the desires of individuals, then the criminal gets pot luck depending on who he assaulted. |
It would also open things up to coercement. Victims could be threatened into saying they forgive the person and let them go free.
On the other extreme, some crackpot could demand the death penalty for someone who ran over their cat.
Best that punishment not be in the hands of the victims. |
The cat ones a little harsh
If it were a dog however..... _________________ You cant fix stupid, turns out you cant quarantine it either! |
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David
to wish impossible things
Joined: 27 Jul 2003 Location: the edge of the deep green sea
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Mugwump wrote: | ^ actually what victims want is an abstract consideration, but a minor one. The point of justice is due punishment of responsible individuals as a mark of the boundaries of right. If criminals are to be punished in accordance with the desires of individuals, then the criminal gets pot luck depending on who he assaulted. |
But this is still wedded to the framing of criminal justice as punitive, i.e. some getting off lightly and some getting punished too harshly. If we see most forms of restorative justice as being inherently rehabilitative, then the benefits are already there regardless of extent of 'punishment'; the key factor is that the criminal has made amends to the victim in some meaningful way.
Such sentences could of course still be overseen by the courts so that it's not left purely to the victim's discretion and that what is asked is neither too lenient nor too onerous. As an alternative to the more abstract idea of community service, this seems like a more potentially useful approach. _________________ "Every time we witness an injustice and do not act, we train our character to be passive in its presence." – Julian Assange |
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KenH
Joined: 24 Jan 2010
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I really don't know what the answer is, or what needs to done to right what was wrong. In some cases it is too late as " the fiddler" is dead and gone and no-one knows about the crimes other than the victims and none of the victims know how many there were! Most victims never tell anyone and try to live their lives the best they can! Most don't heal though! _________________ Cheers big ears |
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stui magpie
Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.
Joined: 03 May 2005 Location: In flagrante delicto
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KenH wrote: | I really don't know what the answer is, or what needs to done to right what was wrong. In some cases it is too late as " the fiddler" is dead and gone and no-one knows about the crimes other than the victims and none of the victims know how many there were! Most victims never tell anyone and try to live their lives the best they can! Most don't heal though! |
Cut flesh it will heal by itself, in time. If the wound is big enough, you may have scar tissue to remind you and or it may never be quite the same.
Psychological injuries don't just heal with time. _________________ Every dead body on Mt Everest was once a highly motivated person, so maybe just calm the **** down. |
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watt price tully
Joined: 15 May 2007
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So the Catholics (Team Pell) hire a Jewish top silk (Robert Richter) who married the daughter of a top Methodist Minster at the time to represent them.
"Cardinal George Pell has sought the advice of one of Australias leading criminal barristers and is considering legal action for defamation as police sift through historical sex abuse claims against one of the Vaticans most senior figures.
The Weekend Australian can reveal that Cardinal Pell engaged Robert Richter QC for advice after contested claims surfaced this year that he had assaulted children in his former home in the city of Ballarat nearly 40 years ago, where his career began.
Mr Richter, who represented gangland figure Mick Gatto when he was charged with murder but later acquitted in 2005, is considered the standout criminal barrister in Victoria and possibly Australia.
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Mr Richter is believed to have been one of several legal figures consulted over the allegations.
The cardinal reiterated his complete and utter rejection of any allegations of sexual abuse against him at any time, a spokeswoman said. He is also considering legal action against those organisations promoting these calumnies.
Police are trawling through evidence and a series of accusations against Cardinal Pell from the 1970s through to the 1990s.
Cardinal Pell was furious with the way the police investigation was made public, first in a newspaper report early this year, followed by an ABC story in July. If a complaint is made, police are required to investigate it.......Cardinal Pells supporters argue that he has been caught in the backwash of deep, understandable, but bitter anger over the churchs handling of the sex abuse debacle.
However, victims have been scathing of Cardinal Pell, blaming him for having failed to do enough to address properly the extent of offending in the dioceses of Melbourne and Sydney, where he ruled as archbishop and cardinal before becoming the treasurer of the Vatican, a title known formally as Prefect of the Secretariat for the Economy.
The decision to seek Mr Richters counsel reflects the seriousness with which Cardinal Pell and his advisers are treating the police investigation.
While Mr Richters headline achievement was extracting Gatto from jail and a murder charge after Gatto shot dead Andrew Benji Veniamin in a restaurant in 2004, he also was instrumental in defending state Labor minister Theo Theophanous in 2009 over rape charges.
The former cabinet minister was charged with raping a female friend on a red velvet couch in his parliamentary office in 1998 after taking her on a late night tour of the Victorian parliament. The charges were thrown out."
The Australian online:
cardinal-pell-seeks-top-silk-robert-richters-over-sex-claims/news-story/c9e35db24df0694fabb470a469d0d542 _________________ “I even went as far as becoming a Southern Baptist until I realised they didn’t keep ‘em under long enough” Kinky Friedman
Last edited by watt price tully on Fri Jun 30, 2017 11:36 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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think positive
Side By Side
Joined: 30 Jun 2005 Location: somewhere
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multiculturalism!! _________________ You cant fix stupid, turns out you cant quarantine it either! |
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David
to wish impossible things
Joined: 27 Jul 2003 Location: the edge of the deep green sea
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watt price tully wrote: | David wrote: | Pretty weird for a decade-old 'gotcha' tape of Abbott to be circulating when it's already patently obvious that he would admire a high-ranking figure of his church like Pell. Perhaps it's time for the old "are you now or have you ever been a member of the Communist Party" routine. |
I think you're reading far too much into it.
It's amusing for its own sake, that is Abbott gets gets caught out lying, forget about the subject matter. Then his reaction of staring daggers at Tony Jones, words failing him... followed by the fun of the Chaser crew. It's funny not because of Pell but because of Abbott. In thius case it happens to be about Pell.
No go on & tell me about the communist party questions: nice theory but not the right fit here.
However Miranda Devine: that is about Pell. |
Oh, I also thought that video was hilarious (and a refreshing reminder that Abbott has always been something of a loose unit). I was more reacting to the reference in the article to people on Twitter eagerly sharing that clip all of a sudden just seemed like a way for certain people (*cough cough Labor stooges*) to get some of the mud to stick to another old favourite. _________________ "Every time we witness an injustice and do not act, we train our character to be passive in its presence." – Julian Assange |
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Member 7167
"What Good Fortune For Governments That The People Do Not Think" - Adolf Hitler.
Joined: 18 Dec 2008 Location: The Collibran Hideout
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It is certainly an interesting case from many perspectives and if Pell is guilty I hope he is successfully prosecuted.
If not I still think that people like Pell have a lot to answer for. They were the ones ultimately responsible for the actions of those who reported to them either directly or indirectly within the structure and the Catholic church in the past had a very strong structure. In many cases, even if they were not a party to the adverse activities they either ignored it, put the needs and reputation of the church ahead of the most vulnerable and through their actions moved the perpetrators onto virgin pastures where their crimes and acts were repeated.
I went though the Catholic school system in NSW during the 60's and early 70's. The last 4 years were at a boarding school outside of Sydney.
Fortunately I never witnessed any sexual exploitation but what I did witness and endure was a great deal of manipulation and physical violence. You would be caned or hit for little to no reason. If certain individuals were in a bad mood then everyone was fair game. I witnessed a complete dormitory and a complete class of boys caned for minor infractions or simply because we did not know the answer to a maths question. I can remember being forced to shower under extremely hot water by one individual and if you refused to enter the shower you were caned across the back until you entered. This was an old part of the school that had about 12 shower booths but one central point were the hot and cold water was mixed. These events were common place. Some individuals who were favoured received a lot of benefits whist other received noting but put downs.
Even in the day schools in those days the Brothers had few limitations. I can remember one F%^%$ who would have you touch your toes and strap you repeated behind the knees until the back of the knees were so swollen you could hardly walk. He had a special strap made by the local boot repairer so that he could impose the most pain with each application. Yes, these supposed men of god were cruel and they repeatably did cruel acts. In my opinion they have a great deal to answer for.
I am still in contact with many mates from my boarding school days. Many were scarred in one way or another. Some recovered overtime whilst for others it has affected their whole lives. For some it affected their ability to trust and maintain relationships which is an essential components to having long term quality relationships. This is the case with my best friend from those days. I have been very fortunate as my wife of 38 years helped me greatly in learning to trust and overcome this aspect of my past.
The Catholic church is on its knees due to the exposure of their conduct in respect to sexual abuse. If their other abuses were fully exposed there would be little left of the Catholic church in Australia. In my opinion they need to answer for their crimes.
P.S. Over time I have recognised the limitations of these individuals and their abuse of responsibility and influence and have become a better person as a result. Most of us (not all) have the ability to learn, grow and evolve. _________________ Now Retired - Every Day Is A Saturday |
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Mugwump
Joined: 28 Jul 2007 Location: Between London and Melbourne
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^ I tend to agree with this but it varies. I went to a college run by Carmelite priests in the seventies and it was no worse than I saw at the state primary I attended. Some of it was just the times. It was acceptable for teachers to bully and physically beat children. Sexual abuse was a different thing, and in the CC it seems to have been a worldwide phenomenon emanating largely from the Irish-heritage church, which reflected Ireland's own puritanism and harshness. The Italian-rooted parts of the church seem to have been largely free of it. In any event, those who participated in it or connived at it deserve every condemnation. However, the truth regarding Cardinal Pell is now a matter for the courts. _________________ Two more flags before I die! |
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stui magpie
Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.
Joined: 03 May 2005 Location: In flagrante delicto
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^
Phuck
I went to a bush public primary and high school and there was zero abuse, physical or mental.
The headmaster used the cane on people in primary school, but reluctantly. he certainly didn't get off on it.
There was one sadistic little dwarf at the high school, deputy principal, who used to wander the grounds with his cane looking for trouble, but even though 4 over the fingertips (especially on a cold morning) stung like buggery, it was hardly abusive. _________________ Every dead body on Mt Everest was once a highly motivated person, so maybe just calm the **** down. |
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partypie
Joined: 01 Oct 2010
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Members account echoes what my brother told me about the Christian brothers college he attended in the 60s. He ended up with PTSD and dying prematurely, partly due to poor mental health. He certainly experienced physical abuse but denied being sexually abused there.
He told me about the time he and his mate had Saturday detention. They had to plant trees. The brother told them to dig a hole and take the sapling out of the pot and plant it. This they did for a few hours and when the brother came back he demanded to know why they had planted the trees upside down. Sorry sir, you never told us which way they were supposed to go. |
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stui magpie
Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.
Joined: 03 May 2005 Location: In flagrante delicto
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^
geezus, that's sad but almost funny as well. Little act of defiance.
i bet they paid for that. _________________ Every dead body on Mt Everest was once a highly motivated person, so maybe just calm the **** down. |
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David
to wish impossible things
Joined: 27 Jul 2003 Location: the edge of the deep green sea
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What Member describes seems like a good reminder of the root problem here: not Catholicism or even paedophiles per se, but institutions that allow absolute power to be wielded over the vulnerable. It basically reiterates what the Stanford prison experiment told us about human nature and authority: absolute power corrupts absolutely. _________________ "Every time we witness an injustice and do not act, we train our character to be passive in its presence." – Julian Assange |
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think positive
Side By Side
Joined: 30 Jun 2005 Location: somewhere
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Hence why trump is now president, the little people finally got a chance for something different. Hopefully the biggest wake up call to politicians everywhere. I agree totally, and privatisation probably makes it worse. But that could be coloured by Orange is the New Black!
How do you stop greed? The competition to have the most power? How do we get the world, or even one country into a new way of thinking. And how the hell was that kind of control, that kind of evil achievable in the first place? 1 man doesn't do that, the scope of it is mind boggling.
Sorry binge watching the first 10 episodes of The 💯 hasn't made me very hopeful we can fix this even after the Armageddon!
It's very depressing. If he is found guilty, what do you think will change? Will the flock thin? And will they give up on religion or go elsewhere? It's such a massive massive abuse of power. Of trust. How far up does it go, or even how far up does the cover up go? This isn't one man on trial, it's a big part of the organisation. And if even part of its true, then it's a good thing it's finally got a chance to come out. _________________ You cant fix stupid, turns out you cant quarantine it either! |
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stui magpie
Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.
Joined: 03 May 2005 Location: In flagrante delicto
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^
Binge watching episodes of what? The Shit? What's that little brown thing? _________________ Every dead body on Mt Everest was once a highly motivated person, so maybe just calm the **** down. |
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