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David
I dare you to try
Joined: 27 Jul 2003 Location: Andromeda
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Post subject: Bill Shorten rape allegation | |
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Thought the Shorten story and its media coverage was odd. Does anyone else wonder why they haven't gone harder on it? I guess maybe they're limited in how much they can say.
Given the grief Stephen Milne received over a decade for unproven rape charges, does anyone think this will have a negative impact on Shorten's electoral chances? It kind of does feel like Gillard's union scandal all over again.
Of course, this is also indicative of how someone's reputation can be damaged by a vexatious rape allegation (if this is indeed vexatious). For some people, the accusation is all that's needed to presume guilt. That's obviously a terrible injustice. Even though I'm no fan of Shorten, I hope that this doesn't have a negative impact on his political career, because it will mean that presumption of innocence still means something in this country.
What do you think?
(Be careful what you post, obviously. Needless to say, defamatory comments, including jokes and innuendo, could get the board in a lot of trouble.) _________________ All watched over by machines of loving grace |
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AN_Inkling
Joined: 06 Oct 2007
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I think unlike with a footballer, particularly not a very well liked one, a respected member of the community will be given some space until the allegations assume some substance. Especially when those allegations date back 30 years to when the person was 19. I think the way this has been handled in the media is how all unproven allegations should be handled. _________________ Well done boys! |
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David
I dare you to try
Joined: 27 Jul 2003 Location: Andromeda
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^ I agree with that. I guess I'm just a bit surprised by the sudden decency when these things are usually treated so much more carelessly by the media and general public. _________________ All watched over by machines of loving grace |
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swoop42
Whatcha gonna do when he comes for you?
Joined: 02 Aug 2008 Location: The 18
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I'm probably alone here but I just feel there should be a statute of limitations when it comes alleged sexual offenses unless the alleged victim was under the age of 16 at the time.
People especially in a circumstance like this when it's the word of one single person against another shouldn't have to answer for alleged crimes decades ago when most likely there isn't bound to be a single thread of evidence it occurred to be found.
To easy these days for someone with a personal grudge, mental illness, political purposes etc. to slander someone with these allegations and even if not a shred of evidence exists or the person charged some mud will stick in some peoples minds and that's blatantly unjust.
Personally I feel if you're an adult or above 16 at the time these alleged sexual offenses occurred you don't take two decades or more to air them if you feel greatly exploited or they're genuine and more importantly you shouldn't be able to. _________________ He's mad. He's bad. He's MaynHARD! |
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Tannin
Can't remember
Joined: 06 Aug 2006 Location: Huon Valley Tasmania
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Been investigated, no grounds for prosecution. End of story. _________________ �Let's eat Grandma.� Commas save lives! |
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3.14159
Joined: 12 Sep 2009
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Rudd= frequenter of NY strip-clubs.
Gillard in a de-facto homosexual relationship with a male hair-dresser
Shorten, Union hit-man, Destroyer of reasonable electricity Bill's, and now alleged rapist.
What kind of organisation is the ALP running?
A Trucking Company?
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David
I dare you to try
Joined: 27 Jul 2003 Location: Andromeda
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Post subject: | |
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swoop42 wrote: | I'm probably alone here but I just feel there should be a statute of limitations when it comes alleged sexual offenses unless the alleged victim was under the age of 16 at the time.
People especially in a circumstance like this when it's the word of one single person against another shouldn't have to answer for alleged crimes decades ago when most likely there isn't bound to be a single thread of evidence it occurred to be found.
To easy these days for someone with a personal grudge, mental illness, political purposes etc. to slander someone with these allegations and even if not a shred of evidence exists or the person charged some mud will stick in some peoples minds and that's blatantly unjust.
Personally I feel if you're an adult or above 16 at the time these alleged sexual offenses occurred you don't take two decades or more to air them if you feel greatly exploited or they're genuine and more importantly you shouldn't be able to. |
Not sure of my views on this. Certainly, I agree with you from a purely functional perspective—it's terribly difficult to prove guilt after decades have elapsed—but I'm not sure if I agree in principle that justice should have a time limit. It's an interesting topic, though. Does anyone else have views on this? _________________ All watched over by machines of loving grace |
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OEP
Joined: 12 Jan 2007 Location: Perth
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Post subject: | |
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swoop42 wrote: | I'm probably alone here but I just feel there should be a statute of limitations when it comes alleged sexual offenses unless the alleged victim was under the age of 16 at the time.
People especially in a circumstance like this when it's the word of one single person against another shouldn't have to answer for alleged crimes decades ago when most likely there isn't bound to be a single thread of evidence it occurred to be found.
To easy these days for someone with a personal grudge, mental illness, political purposes etc. to slander someone with these allegations and even if not a shred of evidence exists or the person charged some mud will stick in some peoples minds and that's blatantly unjust.
Personally I feel if you're an adult or above 16 at the time these alleged sexual offenses occurred you don't take two decades or more to air them if you feel greatly exploited or they're genuine and more importantly you shouldn't be able to. |
Have to disagree with you Swoop on limiting a victims time frame for reporting an assault, though I agree with you on the problem regarding malicious accusations and the damage they will cause the accused, but to put a statue of limitation on sex crimes is to deny those who have been assaulted in the past the opportunity to be provided justice in the future.
Many, many women and men are assaulted and either never report it or take a significant amount of time to come to terms with what's occurred and gain the courage to endure the process that's involved. Firstly making the allegation, secondly waiting to see if the accused is actually charged (and the possible consequences that arise from making these allegations), and finally the inevitable court case which is no picnic for the assault victim.
Victims of sexual assault have a lot to deal with a lot after the fact and that often takes a great deal of time to occur.
To make my point my ex-wife was sexually assaulted and has never reported it. I know of at least two of my female friends that have been assaulted and never reported it and in all these cases the offenses took place more the two decades ago and all of them were adults when it happened. To legislate that they no longer had the right to report their respective assaults would be unfair, to put it mildly.
Given the number of female nicks members I wouldn't be surprised if at least one of them had been assaulted in the past and not reported it. _________________ A Collingwood supporter since the egg was inseminated. |
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David
I dare you to try
Joined: 27 Jul 2003 Location: Andromeda
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I guess the core issue here is the purpose of the justice system. Is it to punish, or deter? To rehabilitate, or provide closure to victims?
I take a slightly radical perspective on justice in some respects—that is, I think the purpose of a conviction should not be retribution for retribution's sake, but a means of making society safer and happier—but I'm not sure where a statute of limitations fits within that. In a way, there's a potential problem of deterrence: if someone knows that all they have to do to escape punishment is to avoid capture for a certain period of time, then there's going to be a little less incentive to not commit a crime. On the other hand, when a certain period of time has elapsed and the criminal is no longer a danger to the public—has already been "rehabilitated", basically—then it seems a bit gratuitous to be charging them and throwing them in jail for a crime committed a generation ago.
Perhaps in my ideal utopian criminal justice system, a statute of limitations would be enforced. Alternatively, perhaps convictions could still be recorded, but sentences could be heavily mitigated (perhaps to the extent of no sentence being given at all) for cases where a long period of time had elapsed. But I'll have to think more on this. _________________ All watched over by machines of loving grace |
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OEP
Joined: 12 Jan 2007 Location: Perth
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David wrote: | I guess the core issue here is the purpose of the justice system. Is it to punish, or deter? To rehabilitate, or provide closure to victims?
I take a slightly radical perspective on justice in some respects—that is, I think the purpose of a conviction should not be retribution for retribution's sake—but I'm not sure where a statute of limitations fits within that. In a way, there's a potential problem of deterrence: if someone knows that all they have to do to escape punishment is to avoid capture for a certain period of time, then there's going to be a little less reason to not commit a crime. On the other hand, when a certain period of time has elapsed and the criminal is no longer a danger to the public—has already been "rehabilitated", basically—then it seems a bit gratuitous to be charging them and throwing them in jail for a crime committed a generation ago.
Perhaps in my ideal utopian criminal justice system, a statute of limitations would be enforced. But I'll have to think on this more. |
In answer to your first paragraph it's all of the above. The Justice System uses sentencing as a punishment for guilty ofenders, the punishments are also given out with a view to future deterrence of recidivist offenders and other persons who may consider committing an similar offense, the courts are also empowered to order offenders to undertake reform programs to assist in their rehabilitation from criminal life and reintergration into society, and it is also intended to provide the victim with a measure of closure on the matter.
How well any of these works on any given occasion is debatable as the psychological profile of the offender may be such that no punishment or rehabilitation will ever prevent them from reoffending, or if any punishment would be severe enough to perminantly deter anyone from committing that offense again. Us the victim may be so traumatized by the offense that no punishment heaped upon the offender would ever be enough to give them a sense of closure.
All the courts can do is try and act in way that is best for all parties, that being the victim, the accused, and the public while staying within the word of the law. _________________ A Collingwood supporter since the egg was inseminated. |
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Lazza
Joined: 04 Feb 2003 Location: Bendigo, Victoria, Australia
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3.14159 wrote: | Rudd= frequenter of NY strip-clubs.
Gillard in a de-facto homosexual relationship with a male hair-dresser
Shorten, Union hit-man, Destroyer of reasonable electricity Bill's, and now alleged rapist.
What kind of organisation is the ALP running?
A Trucking Company?
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Maybe a company like Abbott was running when he allegedly slapped a girl at University years ago.. |
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stui magpie
Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.
Joined: 03 May 2005 Location: In flagrante delicto
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Post subject: | |
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Lazza wrote: | 3.14159 wrote: | Rudd= frequenter of NY strip-clubs.
Gillard in a de-facto homosexual relationship with a male hair-dresser
Shorten, Union hit-man, Destroyer of reasonable electricity Bill's, and now alleged rapist.
What kind of organisation is the ALP running?
A Trucking Company?
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Maybe a company like Abbott was running when he allegedly slapped a girl at University years ago.. |
Been investigated, no grounds for prosecution. End of story. _________________ Every dead body on Mt Everest was once a highly motivated person, so maybe just calm the **** down. |
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stui magpie
Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.
Joined: 03 May 2005 Location: In flagrante delicto
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Post subject: Re: Bill Shorten rape allegation | |
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David wrote: | Thought the Shorten story and its media coverage was odd. Does anyone else wonder why they haven't gone harder on it? I guess maybe they're limited in how much they can say.
Given the grief Stephen Milne received over a decade for unproven rape charges, does anyone think this will have a negative impact on Shorten's electoral chances? It kind of does feel like Gillard's union scandal all over again.
Of course, this is also indicative of how someone's reputation can be damaged by a vexatious rape allegation (if this is indeed vexatious). For some people, the accusation is all that's needed to presume guilt. That's obviously a terrible injustice. Even though I'm no fan of Shorten, I hope that this doesn't have a negative impact on his political career, because it will mean that presumption of innocence still means something in this country.
What do you think?
(Be careful what you post, obviously. Needless to say, defamatory comments, including jokes and innuendo, could get the board in a lot of trouble.) |
The story has been around apparently since last year. There's little to it other than someone airing a complaint via Facebook 25 years after the fact. Unlike the allegations against Gillard for fraud, Abbott for intimidation (or assault without actually touching someone) and other things that have been thrown up, there's really no information publicly available to go on.
Add to that, the Canberra press gallery gets a good idea of the character of the pollies as they're in very close proximity. Hence all the info about what a douche Krudd was.
I'm not a fan of Shorten either, but not because I think he's got any major character flaws, I just think he's captain beige. Mild Bill, not Prime Minister material, hell not even really leadership material.
If he'd shown signs of being a closet sleaze or if the whispers in canberra were that he fancied himself as a pants man, I'm tipping they would have gone harder. _________________ Every dead body on Mt Everest was once a highly motivated person, so maybe just calm the **** down. |
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Tannin
Can't remember
Joined: 06 Aug 2006 Location: Huon Valley Tasmania
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Post subject: Re: Bill Shorten rape allegation | |
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stui magpie wrote: | Mild Bill, not Prime Minister material, hell not even really leadership material. |
This is as opposed to your hero Howard. _________________ �Let's eat Grandma.� Commas save lives! |
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stui magpie
Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.
Joined: 03 May 2005 Location: In flagrante delicto
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Post subject: Re: Bill Shorten rape allegation | |
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Tannin wrote: | stui magpie wrote: | Mild Bill, not Prime Minister material, hell not even really leadership material. |
This is as opposed to your hero Howard. |
You disagreeing with me about Bill? _________________ Every dead body on Mt Everest was once a highly motivated person, so maybe just calm the **** down. |
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