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sherrife 
Victorian Socialists - people before profit
Joined: 18 Apr 2003
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Playing a lot of games with semantics there, and i get your point, but i'm curious as to how you would define racism then?
If being bigoted is different (how?), if disliking and being scared of 'cultural difference' is separate, if making stereotypes on the basis of race is not racist, what the hell is racism?
Oh, this is only addressing the first part of your comment, PC we'll leave to another time maybe? or start a new thread i'd be very interested in discussing it!
Oh, and please explain how the treatment of Indigenous Australians by the government, the media, and the many people who offhandedly call them 'abo's' which is derogatory and most of them HATE, is not racism.
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I would be ashamed to admit that I had risen from the ranks. When I rise it will be with the ranks... - Eugene Debs |
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~Madness~ 
...The Cat...
Joined: 29 May 2001
Location: Melbourne, Vic, Au
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| hoggy wrote: | | I can still give him shit for being small and a crap singer yes? |
I'd say that is a given. lol
He is crap. Bloody love song's and dedications is what he should be on. Can't stand those lovey crap songs.
*waits*
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David 
I dare you to try
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda
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| sherrife wrote: | Playing a lot of games with semantics there, and i get your point, but i'm curious as to how you would define racism then?
If being bigoted is different (how?), if disliking and being scared of 'cultural difference' is separate, if making stereotypes on the basis of race is not racist, what the hell is racism?
Oh, this is only addressing the first part of your comment, PC we'll leave to another time maybe? or start a new thread i'd be very interested in discussing it!
Oh, and please explain how the treatment of Indigenous Australians by the government, the media, and the many people who offhandedly call them 'abo's' which is derogatory and most of them HATE, is not racism. |
This is an important point, and I had considered this myself: is it just semantics?
I don't think so. Consider an Australian of Malaysian heritage who has a distinct Australian accent and lives along the lines of what some would call an 'Australian' culture (Whatever that is). Would he still be a potential victim of racism because of his racial characteristics?
Of course, this is making a big assumption, but I would guess that he would not really suffer from racism. Of course, there might be the odd dickhead who targets him because of his looks, but what we are really concerned with here is mainstream culture.
True racism is what occurred in nazi Germany, in pre-civil war America, and in 90's Rwanda. That was a situation where people were targeted solely because of their racial chracteristics. So, racism is a definite phenomenon which I would argue is distinct from what many today call racism.
Cultural prejudices are definitely distinct from racial prejudices. Have you ever heard someone say "I hate Americans"? I don't think anyone would label that statement racist, but it is an example of a cultural prejudice.
As for Aborigines, unfortunately the stereotypes used against them have a lot of basis in fact. It is widely recognized that Aboriginal communities often suffer from a far lower Standard of Living than the rest of Australians, and with that brings crime and drug addiction. I was once rather shocked when a friend of mine stated that "Aboriginals are bad people" (she comes from a family with a partial Aboriginal heritage, and thus has a lot of Aboriginal relatives). While what she said was rather uneducated and very simplistic, it was simply based on her own experiences of how the children were treated, etc. People will tend to form ideas based on simple observations, and when it seems that a certain culture behaves a certain way in a certain amount of cases, stereotypes are formed.
Perhaps you're still not convinced that this stereotyping differs from racism. I guess I see it as part of a bigger problem. What if, for example, I stated that all Catholic priests were pedophiles. Is that not really in the same category as stating that all Aborigines are drunks? They're both stereotypes, based on some rather ignorant generalisations, that would upset the people who were forced to endure the label.
I guess I've often thought the same about racism. Except in extreme cases (see the examples listed earlier on, nazi Germany etc), I see racism as one part of a larger problem: that is, a lack of respect for others, really.
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All watched over by machines of loving grace |
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bazdaddy 
Joined: 26 Jan 2006
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Well I'm done with this thread waaay to much reading to be done there.
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The black & white jumper, worn by heroes worshipped by millions. |
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~Madness~
...The Cat...
Joined: 29 May 2001
Location: Melbourne, Vic, Au
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| bazdaddy wrote: | | Well I'm done with this thread waaay to much reading to be done there. |
You sound just like me... in hal's words... Too much Data!!
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"whaaa whaaaaaa! |
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Robbo.D.yobbo
The Toovinator
Joined: 31 Oct 2005
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| hoggy wrote: | | I can still give him shit for being small and a crap singer yes? |
no...coz now that he came out...its being homophobic.. |
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David
I dare you to try
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda
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lol, sorry Robbo. I do tend to get a little carried away 
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All watched over by machines of loving grace |
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The Prototype 
Paint my face with a good-for-nothin smile.
Joined: 23 Apr 2003
Location: Hobart, Tasmania
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| bazdaddy wrote: | | Not in this P/C world once you label him that you be called a homophobe because the reason you labelling him that is purely and simply because he is gay. |
That's just stupid, that's like someone bagging Farmer, and being called a racist. Since we have to be politically correct I had better stop bagging Elton John, and any other singer I don't like in case one turns out to be gay.
Damn, it makes life just so...well boring.
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nomadjack
Joined: 27 Apr 2006
Location: Essendon
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Can anyone actually provide me with an actual concrete example of this terribly unfair thing called political correctness? ie an example where someone has been unfairly labelled as being a homophobe or a racist based on a specific comment they made? I'm sure there must be millions of examples out there seeing it's such a major problem and all.
Surely it's not just people getting shitty because they actually have to think about what they say and the effects it may have on others? I agree that sometimes the sensitivity goes too far, but by the same token it doesn't hurt for people to actually have to think about the effects words have and the role they play in shaping power relations. |
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~Madness~
...The Cat...
Joined: 29 May 2001
Location: Melbourne, Vic, Au
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| The Prototype wrote: |
That's just stupid, that's like someone bagging Farmer, and being called a racist. Since we have to be politically correct I had better stop bagging Elton John, and any other singer I don't like in case one turns out to be gay.
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Exactly, or if you disagree with something they say, you're also homophobic, or some sort of racist. It is becomming quite bizarre some of the things in which go on. Especially the one's who always bring an argument back to who or what they are if you disagree or not like them, their music, their views...etc. pfftt...
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"whaaa whaaaaaa! |
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David
I dare you to try
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda
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| nomadjack wrote: | Can anyone actually provide me with an actual concrete example of this terribly unfair thing called political correctness? ie an example where someone has been unfairly labelled as being a homophobe or a racist based on a specific comment they made? I'm sure there must be millions of examples out there seeing it's such a major problem and all.
Surely it's not just people getting shitty because they actually have to think about what they say and the effects it may have on others? I agree that sometimes the sensitivity goes too far, but by the same token it doesn't hurt for people to actually have to think about the effects words have and the role they play in shaping power relations. |
I can't really comment, as I'm not aware if what those guys are talking about actually happens. Maybe it does, I dunno.
To me, political correctness is the odd belief that if you replace one word with another, all stereotyping and discrimination disappears. As you point out, yes, it may have had some positive results, but I'd say only really on a surface level... it really doesn't address the core problems.
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All watched over by machines of loving grace |
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stui magpie 
Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.
Joined: 03 May 2005
Location: In flagrante delicto
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| David wrote: | | lol, sorry Robbo. I do tend to get a little carried away |
Yeah, but your theory has some merits Dave.
I was recently in a taxi in melbourne and the driver was a udanese refugee. He was obviously an educated and articulate man and we had a converation about how he was adapting to Australia.
His first comment was in how he was embarrassed recently with a group of friends and a car nearby backfired and he hit the deck in a reflex action from being shot at since childhood. 
His other comments were along your lines though of a difference in culture. So many of his friends who migrated here are having difficulty in getting jobs that they were qualified for back home, partly because of qulaifications not being recognised but mainly because of their failure to adapt to Australian culture.
At no time did he even hint at racism, in fact he thought Australia was a great place where anyone who was prepared to work hard could get ahead provided they fitted in. His definition of fitting into Australian culture was a semi intangible mix of work ethic, how you relate to others, how you socialise and how you carry yourself in general.
he had formed the opinion that "fitting in" was far more important than qualifications or race and that you didn't need to drop your own religious or cultural beliefs, you just needed to modify aspects of your own behaviour and demeanor.
I found it an interesting insight.
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Every dead body on Mt Everest was once a highly motivated person, so maybe just calm the **** down. |
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Nutmeg 
Joined: 09 May 2005
Location: Preston
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David
When you talk Nazi Germany, Sth African apartheid Rwanda etc. you're referring to institutionalised racism - I guess you could also see it as active racism whereby people go out of their way to inflict their racist views on others.
This is not the only version of racism - as you said it is EXTREME.
What about the insidious, less active, run-of-the-mill, daily racist? You underestimate the power of words. You ask whether racism will disappear if we change 'negro' to 'african-american' - it's all about connotations. Would you rather be described as 'young' or 'juvenile' for example? Fat vs chubby, slender vs skinny, clever vs cunning, intelligent vs nerd, stupid vs larrikin, queer vs homo vs gay vs lesbo vs (I'm a dinosaur) etc etc etc
Interesting point:I've recently started teaching highschool in the northern suburbs, and the first question I am asked by students was 'What nasho are you miss?'. I replied that I was the same as all of them. Naturally confused 'but I'm Maco, he's Lebo, she's Greek' we did a quick survey to find that everyone in the class (22 students) had been born in Australia, only one had been born outside of Melbourne. Yet these kids (year 9) are adamant that they are a particular 'nasho' even if they've never been to the nation they claim (most of em haven't!). I asked them what was wrong with being Australian - 'nothin miss but I'm still Maco'.
bit off topic i know
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Collingwood es bueno para siempre
Ellos saben como jugar el juego.... |
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Piethagoras' Theorem
the hypotenuse, is always a cakewalk
Joined: 29 May 2006
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Interesting name of company too.. Metrans 
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Formally frankiboy and FrankieGoesToCollingwood. |
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Piethagoras' Theorem
the hypotenuse, is always a cakewalk
Joined: 29 May 2006
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I'm sure you didn't Tess, interesting coincidence though 
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Formally frankiboy and FrankieGoesToCollingwood. |
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