IRAQ
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joffa corfe
PREMIERS 2010
Joined: 13 Nov 2003
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| David wrote: | Your first point is excellent Roddy, but then it seems you contradict yourself.
So, you agree that it was wrong for the UN and US to abandon Rwanda, but now you believe they should do the same to Iraq?
In my mind, if the US pulled out of Iraq now, that's basically what they would be doing, abandoning the country in a state of civil war.
| joffa corfe wrote: | | lambs brains for tea wrote: | | joffa corfe wrote: | | David wrote: | | yeah, but Joffa, who blew up those kiddies may I ask? |
At a guess i'd probably have to say people protesting at the Coalition's presence in Iraq |
The hatered between the shites and the sunnis that has existed for centuries would ofcourse have had nothing to do with it I suppose? Also let us not forget the kurds in the north. They were never used as target practice by saddams forces were they. |
And it must also be pointed out the sunnis and shites have lived together pretty well with many successful marriages and families. |
What's your point? Sunnis and Shiites used to love each other, and now they just decided to blow each other up? Let's be a little realistic here.
Also, you used sarcasm to deflect my original question. What I was asking was, did the US troops cause these children's injuries, or was it the 'insurgents'? |
Suffer the poor children of the world who are starved blown apart orphaned all due to the consuquences of WAR.
My heart forever cries at the injustice the Children suffer at the hands of War.
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David 
I dare you to try
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda
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| SydMagpiesBimbo wrote: | | The US is a disgrace to the Western World. |
A statement like that is pretty silly. Look at the actions of many European nations over the years - the French-Algerian war in 1961 for example. Or, maybe, pretty much all the 'Western' nations turning a blind eye to the various crises in Africa.
The fact is, all countries have skeletons in the closet and shameful events in their history. The US has only been involved in so many major wars because they have been the dominant Western power of the last 60 years. Also, I do not believe that all, or even most of those wars can be declared to be morally unjustifiable.
| Joffa Corfe wrote: | Suffer the poor children of the world who are starved blown apart orphaned all due to the consuquences of WAR.
My heart forever cries at the injustice the Children suffer at the hands of War. |
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All watched over by machines of loving grace |
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Culprit 
Joined: 06 Feb 2003
Location: Port Melbourne
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The Poms are now starting to get out as per all the reports. Lets see what spin they put on this. The coalition of the willing is fast becoming the coalition of the unwilling.
Listening to Howard and Downer and Co followed by Cheney’s spin I cannot help but laugh. They are treating people as fools. Cheney states it’s a success that the UK is pulling out troops.  Downer has said they are not withdrawing they are reducing. And now our Defence Minister states on National Radio that the UK is down sizing
As Harry Who would say on Get Smart “Amazing”. |
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PeterWH 
www.peakhillfm.com.au
Joined: 20 Oct 2001
Location: back home after travelling around Australia
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Am I allowed to throw in my 50cents worth....I will any way.
Cast your minds back to the Vietnam conflict...who was in power then..The Liberal Gov't,who was the PM Harold Holt,who was his predecessor, 'Pig Iron Bob' Menzies,who is Howards idol....'pig iron Bob'
Who awsa the US Government Republicans,the Pres was Johnson,who is in power?? (use the word loosley) now Repulicans under Bush Jnr.
Who was the one who said that Vietnam would only last a short length of time due to the fact that the 'communists' would surrender...Harold Holt/Lyndon Baines Johnson......Holt commits suicide,Gorton takes over,another Liberal,thenm he is thrown out and McMahon takes over,another Liberal.Along comes EG Whitlam who states the obvious....I will bring the troops out of Vietnam if I am voted in as PM......the same thing is happening now in Iraq as what has happened in Vietnam,BUT instead of it being Communism its supposedly 'weapons of mass desruction',Sadam Hussein,OBL and in general the Shi'ites the Suddies....
No WMD have been found Hussein is Gone,no one knows where to locate OBL and still innocent people are dying in Iraq,all because a 'warmonger' PM/Pres got their gear off telling the rest of the world how good they were and committed troops tothis part of the world,and what for........
I agree with Tony Blair and Kevn Rudd,bring home some of the troops leave over the ones that are making a difference and stop wasting taxpayers money on something that isnt anything to do with us,and let the Iraqis sort out their own mess.
I am part of a US web site who recon that Bush/Howard are breathing out of each others behind and the sooner they go the better.
Thats my 50 cents worth,so take it or leave it.
By the way the US aint the only ones that are an insult to the western world....take alook around you
By the way I was called up in National Service in 1968 3rd/5th Signals Puckapunyal
_________________
PeterWH VK2FPHR Membership No.248693
PIES FOR PREMIERS.... YEAH WHEN!!!
We missed 2002 to 2009,BUT 2010 was OUR YEAR.. WATCH OUT 2018 here we come.We hope!!
Last edited by PeterWH on Thu Feb 22, 2007 3:51 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Culprit
Joined: 06 Feb 2003
Location: Port Melbourne
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| I reckon that is 50 cents well spent Peter. |
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PeterWH
www.peakhillfm.com.au
Joined: 20 Oct 2001
Location: back home after travelling around Australia
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Thanks Culprit
_________________
PeterWH VK2FPHR Membership No.248693
PIES FOR PREMIERS.... YEAH WHEN!!!
We missed 2002 to 2009,BUT 2010 was OUR YEAR.. WATCH OUT 2018 here we come.We hope!! |
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WhyPhilWhy?
WhyPhilWhy?
Joined: 09 Oct 2001
Location: Location: Location:
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except... LBJ was a Democrat.
I can see your broader argument though, and I guess Blair is supposed to left / labour. |
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David
I dare you to try
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda
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| Quote: | | let the Iraqis sort out their own mess. |
I have a major issue with this: it was not the Iraqis who started this war.
The war, whatever its merits are/were, was caused by the US and its allies. Therefore, these countries are responsible for at least fixing Iraq up. To leave it the way it is now (with multiple factions fighting each other, causing deaths of many Iraqi civilians, and with the possibility of Iraq being controlled again by Saddam supporters) would not only be an act of shameful abandonment, it would completely undermine the reasons we went to war in the first place.
As WhyPhilWhy mentioned, The Vietnam war was actually begun under a democrat government. Indeed, I believe it was JFK's administration that was largely responsible for that war. Nixon, yes that guy, was the one who oversaw the withdrawal of troops from Vietnam.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vietnam_War
So, your point doesn't seem to hold all that much water. The conservative side of politics is not necessarily responsible for all the world's ills.
Also, it should be pointed out that the withdrawal of soldiers from Vietnam signified failure. In other words, the US and Australia actually lost the war. Iraq looks like it might be headed the same way.
While you are comparing the two wars, here, courtesy of wikipedia again, is what happened as soon as America abandoned Vietnam.
| Quote: | | Upon taking control, the Vietnamese communists banned other political parties, arrested suspects believed to have collaborated with the U.S. and embarked on a mass campaign of collectivization of farms and factories. Reconstruction of the war-ravaged country was slow and serious humanitarian and economic problems confronted the communist regime. In 1978, the Vietnamese Army invaded Cambodia to remove their erstwhile allies, the Khmer Rouge, from power. |
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vietnam#Post_War
History does have its lessons after all. Sadly, nobody is heeding them.
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All watched over by machines of loving grace |
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PeterWH
www.peakhillfm.com.au
Joined: 20 Oct 2001
Location: back home after travelling around Australia
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David,
the point is WHO was the government in Australia that send US to vietnam,OK so Kennedy got shot on November 22,Johnson took over and he stuffed up,BUT it was still the LIBERAL gov't in Australia,like it is now that sent us to Vietnam...I know I was in the middle of it.We all cheered when EG Whitlam stated that he would bring the troops home in 1972 or when ever.So Nixon tried and failed as did Gerald Ford,BUT the questions remains......why should we get involved with some one elses conflict.....
I am sorry BUT Wikipedia only tells part of the story,Yes Wikipedia is a good reference,BUt it dosnt tell all the story.
Any way PLEASE dont get me started on the Vietnam war...the claytons war,the war we were involved in when we shouldnt not have been in.....
_________________
PeterWH VK2FPHR Membership No.248693
PIES FOR PREMIERS.... YEAH WHEN!!!
We missed 2002 to 2009,BUT 2010 was OUR YEAR.. WATCH OUT 2018 here we come.We hope!! |
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Culprit
Joined: 06 Feb 2003
Location: Port Melbourne
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| WhyPhilWhy? wrote: | except... LBJ was a Democrat.
I can see your broader argument though, and I guess Blair is supposed to left / labour. |
If Blair said he wanted to run the Tory's you would see no difference. He is very RIGHT as far as policies go.  |
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London Dave 
Ješte jedna pivo prosím
Joined: 16 Dec 1998
Location: Iceland on Thames
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| David wrote: | | The Vietnam war was actually begun under a democrat government. |
Not true, the US had been in Vietnam pretty much after the French pulled out, so twas Ike who got em in, though Kennedy undoubtedly increased US involvement. (Is that a surge?) I did read an interview with Ted Sorensen saying JFK was thinking about reducing US involvement before he was bumped off...though perhaps that was just him attempting to add a little lustre to the JFK legacy. You do have to recall that although the McCarthy years were over, there was still a great fear in the US regarding the spread of communism, the Domino Theory prevailed, they'd just been thru the Cuban Missile Crisis to name but a couple of things that influence US foreign policy.
At that time of JFK's increasing US involvement, the 'war' was quite popular , if that's the right word, with the US population at large. The press, the public 'seeing' the war every night on TV news, later in that decade, the rising death toll on US forces, and the increasing understanding of where the 'burden' of the fighting was (i.e. poor/black etc, whilst 'heroes' like Dick Cheney deferred from the draft 5 times, "I had other priorities in the '60s than military service" (http://www.nybooks.com/articles/19376 ) or George Bush 'served' out their 'time' in the Texas National guard) turned the public against the war.)
Nixon actually upped the ante again before figuring out he had no hope of Victory...I believe the bombing of Cambodia and escalation of air war (i.e. carpet bombong of North Vietnam) occured on his 'watch'.
I did see an opinion fro ma Colonel from North Vietnam stationg that the vietnamese fought for 22 years, whislt the US fought for 1 year 22 times. Bit like Iraq, where the US has fought for 1 year 4 times so far.
As far as Australia's involvement went, pretty sure cabinet papers revealed our PM sent our troops there saying the US asked, despite no such request being made by the US. (Not a lie though, just economical with the truth). Howard had 'stars in his eyes' after his treatment in the US immediately after September 11. Said at the time it may have clouded his judgement, and still believe it to be so.
Must say I did have a giggle over Howards attack on Obama...leading Democrats calling on him to put in more troops or shut up. I guess a draft wouldn't go down well, but I'd really like to see the hawkish Australians have the chance to demonstrate the courage of their convictions by signing up, at least for the Navy to protect us from illegal immigrants , sorry terrorists.
I don't particularly agree with withdrawal, as just pissing off after creating the mess is immoral....however, I'd prfer a more dteailed strategy than 'staying the course' and refusing to 'cut and run'. Pretty sure that';s what Hitler did at Stalingrad, and that was a great success for him! |
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