Matthew Cambell- A disgrace

[Broadie]

I've deliberately stayed out of this one (and am half thinking I still should - no dounbt someone will take me up on this).

However, since Alf's justification has raised some very pertinent points, I'll weigh in.

The passage of time (my area, as a history teacher) has a way of ensuring that almost any event will eventually become such public property that jokes either around or directly involving the event become acceptable, or at least the terminology that was once considered sacrosant becomes the vernacular (as in Alf's example of the Blitz).

Much of this is dependant upon ethnocentricity. To take Alf's example: suicide-bombing has been used in the vernacular and in jokes in Australia quite freely UNTIL it directly affected our pysche via Sept 11. I know a friend from Israel certainly found such things intensely distasteful well before this time, but they only became an issue for Australians once a few thousand WESTERNERS (notably including Australians) became the victims.

You'll note the very same ethnocentricity in our news coverage: there were at least 3 natural disasters last year where more people died than on Sept 11. Can any of you name them? NO? That's because they occurred in parts of Africa, Asia & Asia Minor. Such things are relegated to either the middle pages of our papers or a 10-second news snippet. Had they occured in the US, Britain or here, we would have had similar 24-hour coverage as we did on Sept 11.

Before you criticise others "lack of taste" in their asides, consider your own cultural bias in such matters.

Please consider this neither an acceptance nor a condemnation of Alf's comment.

Just consider.

Broadie

[Mike]

Ah Broadie - the voice of reason. I knew if I shut up long enough someone would moderate the moderators.

I agree that the response to the WTC attack had much more impact on us because it happened in a country that we identify with very closely. It also happened in the country that has the ability to dominate world media. Turkey lost 10 times as many innocents in the earthquakes a couple of years ago - natural disaster, true, but the end result to the victims was exactly the same. Ruwanda has lost even more than that due to tribal politics and terror. Those disasters, and many others in recent times, have failed to generate the levels of worldwide grief that September 11 did, because those countries have a unique cultural base and no media power.

I wonder Carol, what upset you. Was it what Alf wrote, or was it because he believes what he does? Writing it is not likely to denigrate the memory of the victims in your mind, it is only Alf's expression of what he believes. If he expected tacit approval or perhaps to score some points at the expense of the victims, he's failed as far as you're concerned, so what is the damage. Why should he be expected to show reverence for something that you believe? Isn't that the same as fundamentalist muslims attacking a christian country because of their beliefs - in a milder form?

But, regardless of the reasons, the grief that people feel over the massacre of September 11 is very real and, out of regard for others, needs to be respected. As Broadie says, the effect will fade with time and irreverent references will become more acceptable. There are a lot of Titanic jokes around and they are broadly accepted and laughed at (if they are funny). By the same token, in 50 years the WTC will cease to be the sacred cow that it is at the moment.

Good thing I'm no longer a moderator, because this thread now bears no similarity to its title... aaahhh, the freedom.

[Harrysz]

Dr Alf's reference to flying into a tower was in poor taste and was made worse by his begrudging "I don't apologise" diatribe. But I found some of the responses even more worrying. Craig said that Alf was merely expressing an opinion. That's not an opinion
Craig. Broadie accused Dr Alf's detractors of cultural bias, of
ethnocentricity. He said no one remembers disasters in Africa and Asia. Mike called Broadie "the voice of reason", and chimed in with references to earthquakes in Turkey and the sinking of the Titanic. Hey fellas, how can you compare the loss of life
occuring in natural disasters or accidents, tragic though that may be, with the MURDER of 4000 people. That's the difference isn't it? The real voice of reason here is Carol. She chided Alf for his inappropriate comments. Unlike what followed, she applied clear thinking and logic to Alf's sicko remarks. Go Carol!

[foxy]

do we really need this bickering right on the verge of the footy season? no doubt the issues are very important, but is it the kind of thing we ought to be talking about here?

[Mike]

Harry, what I've expressed is my opinion, just as what you've expressed is yours - that doesn't make either (any) of us necessarily right or wrong. Have the decency to recognise that if you have the right to have and to state your opinion then so do others, even if theirs differs to yours.

Dead right Foxy - this is not the place or the time.

[London Dave]

(borrowing Mikes old moderator hat)Well, I think this 'issue' was gonna arise sooner or later, so I didnt think it was gonna serve any purpose by editing/deleting Alf's post. Probably best to let the discussion take its course. with my moderator hat on, I posted suggeting Alf may like to 'rephrase' his original post. That's up to him. Don't think it serves any purpose coming on the heavy as a moderator. We may end up in a tit-for-tat moderator reprisal war. Perhaps anyone wishing to continue disussing this should do so in the appropriate place, the Moderators/complaints forums.

(putting on my own hat) Personally, I didnt really have a major problem with Alf's post, its his style to run it close to the edge. I tend to agree with Broadie opinion (on most counts, especially the hanging off commenting on it again).

[Black_White]

The beauty of this topic ,though we have strayed waaayyy off course, is that it has not degenerated into a slanging match or a personal vendetta.
This has made moderating an absolute breeze. Not one person has overstepped the mark.

-Craig

We Are Collingwood and you're NOT!!

[magpie joffa]

I dont really want to get involved, but i think it's important to say that the one thing that has made this board so unique is that we can come here and be ourselves.

Lets not spoil it and lets not condemn those who dare not to follow popular opinion.

I know Alf pretty well and he is a good bloke and a wonderful collingwood person lets just leave it at that shall we.

And if Alf is anti american good on him for having the guts and conviction for speaking his mind, Alf dont dare change i wouldn't want you any other way mate!!

And just to let you all know the events on september 11th was one of the saddest times in my life, to think that humans can turn on each other and create so much sadness and death is beyond me.

Im not pro or anti american, but looking back in history it was sure good to see the yanks get there arses kicked in vietnam the only downfall in that war was the death of so many young australians.

Now lets get back to the footy thats what we are here for!!!



1892 _ 2002... THE PROUDEST JOURNEY IN FOOTBALL CONTINUES, WITH ARMS LOCKED TOGETHER,WHILST MARCHING SIDE BY SIDE, WE WILL FOREVER STAND AS ONE TO SUPPORT OUR BELOVED COLLINGWOOD FOOTBALL CLUB, it's more than just a club it's a way of life !

[Bones]

It was a tastless remark.
Dr Alf should be intelligent enough to realise it may upset some people, but seems he is not. I think one small apology would have been sufficent for this thread to be passed over, common sense should have prevailed with the moderators as well. Freedom of speech should not have been an issue with this, are we not trying to hold this board together? Any biggering, bitching, slagging or whatever could very easily get out of hand with a issue like this.
Yes i agree, probably in a year or 2 or 3 many of us may not feel so sensitive and would pass this over as just another dumb bluddy male brain fart.
Nuff said, to bluddy disgusted to hang around here anymore.