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tbaker
Joined: 02 Jul 2018
Location: Q19 Southern Stand MCG
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| Pies4shaw wrote: | | He is a long way short of best coach in the AFL. I cannot stand Clarkson but he surely has that mantle. There are plenty of other coaches well ahead of Bucks, eg Hardwick, the Geelong Scott, Worsfold Longmire, Simpson, Lyon and the Footscray bloke, so Bucks is middle of the table, at best. |
He's a long way short looking over an extended period, but for where he has us now, I wouldn't say he's a long way short - he's rapidly catching and mid table at worst (look at our injury list and where we sit - unbelievable). Disagree about Simpson (what's he achieved yet?), and Chris Scott (hardly won a final since 2011).
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I find your lack of faith disturbing |
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Pies4shaw 
pies4shaw
Joined: 08 Oct 2007
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^ You seriously want to contend that he isn't a long way behind Clarkson? Clarkson has assembled 2 separate teams that each won premierships (and, of course, 4 in total), whereas Bucks has not yet coached a team into a Grand Final.
It's nice to feel - for the first team in years - that our team isn't entirely irrelevant to the competition but surely we don't have to treat Collingwood not being hopeless as the test for enshrining the Coach in the Hall of Fame? |
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ronrat
Joined: 22 May 2006
Location: Thailand
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And Toss Lyon please. made 3 GFs with a ready made team full of stars and turned a promising Freo side into a basket case.
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Annoying opposition supporters since 1967. |
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tbaker
Joined: 02 Jul 2018
Location: Q19 Southern Stand MCG
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| Pies4shaw wrote: | | ^ You seriously want to contend that he isn't a long way behind Clarkson? Clarkson has assembled 2 separate teams that each won premierships (and, of course, 4 in total), whereas Bucks has not yet coached a team into a Grand Final. |
I didn't at all mention where he sits in relation to Clarkson - nor did I dispute that Clarkson is the best of the current coaches...
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I find your lack of faith disturbing |
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tbaker
Joined: 02 Jul 2018
Location: Q19 Southern Stand MCG
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| ronrat wrote: | | And Toss Lyon please. made 3 GFs with a ready made team full of stars and turned a promising Freo side into a basket case. |
Agree - Lyon seems to be good at getting sides (with ready made personnel) to the grand final, but has trouble rebuilding his teams for another tilt
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I find your lack of faith disturbing |
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Pies4shaw
pies4shaw
Joined: 08 Oct 2007
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^ And the comparison is with what?
St Kilda's "ready made team of stars" included, in the last game before Lyon took over, 6 players over 30, and had an average age over 26. That team was on the decline, having one 17:8, 15:9 and 14:9 matches in the three preceding seasons. He rebuilt the team in 2007 (they "bottomed out" at 11, 10 and 1), made the preliminary final at the end of his second season with a team containing 7 players who had played less than 50 games and, by the end of 2009, he put a team on the park that won 18 games in a row, lost two matches in the H&A by a total of 7 points and made the Grand Final (and, if we are being fair about it, we all expected them to win - though we barracked for Geelong that day). It was funny to see St Kilda lose in both 2009 and 2010, when Lyon's team peaked, but I don't rush to blame a coach for Grand Final losses. Anyway, he coached St Kilda for 5 seasons, made the finals in 4 of those 5 years and got his team into 2 Grand Finals.
Then he went to Freo. The side he took over won 9 and lost 13 the previous year, including losing their last 7 games of that prior season in a row. They won 15 and lost 9 in his first season. They beat Geelong on the MCG in the Elimination Final. In his second season there, Freo made the Grand Final. They lost to Hawthorn which had been beaten unexpectedly in 2012 and went on to win three in a row. They played finals again in 2014 and 2015. The Freo team that last played a final had an average age of over 27, included only two players who had played less than 50 games and 8 players who had played at least 150 games. They are now in rebuilding mode - the team he put on the park in their last outing against Melbourne included 12 players who had played less than 50 games. The average age of that team was under 24. It contained only two players (Barlow and Hill) who have played over 130 games.
In summary, then, Lyon coached St Kilda for 5 years for 4 seasons of finals and two Grand Finals and Freo for 7 years for 4 seasons of finals, including 1 Grand Final. That's finals in 8 years out of 12 coaching. If Bucks is to be compared favourably with Lyon, Lyon's got to do nothing more with Freo and Collingwood needs to make three Grand Finals (and probably win one) in this and the next 5 seasons.
I think those figures tend to show how delusional some of the views on here are, at the moment, about the relative merits of Bucks' coaching and other current-day coaches. |
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tbaker
Joined: 02 Jul 2018
Location: Q19 Southern Stand MCG
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| Pies4shaw wrote: | | I think those figures tend to show how delusional some of the views on here are, at the moment, about the relative merits of Bucks' coaching and other current-day coaches. |
Equally, some are in denial about how well he is coaching now. Some coaches took years to become the great coach they are now - eg. Hardwick
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I find your lack of faith disturbing |
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K
Joined: 09 Sep 2011
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| ^ I'm not convinced Hardwick is a "great" coach. Obviously, he is a premiership coach. He's also made a game plan that suits his playing list's lack of skill. But he hardly had a choice, so perhaps that just means he's not an incredibly stubborn or stupid coach. |
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Pies4shaw
pies4shaw
Joined: 08 Oct 2007
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| Any takers this week? |
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Collingwood Crackerjack
Joined: 28 Jul 2008
Location: Canberra
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| Pies4shaw wrote: | ^ And the comparison is with what?
St Kilda's "ready made team of stars" included, in the last game before Lyon took over, 6 players over 30, and had an average age over 26. That team was on the decline, having one 17:8, 15:9 and 14:9 matches in the three preceding seasons. He rebuilt the team in 2007 (they "bottomed out" at 11, 10 and 1), made the preliminary final at the end of his second season with a team containing 7 players who had played less than 50 games and, by the end of 2009, he put a team on the park that won 18 games in a row, lost two matches in the H&A by a total of 7 points and made the Grand Final (and, if we are being fair about it, we all expected them to win - though we barracked for Geelong that day). It was funny to see St Kilda lose in both 2009 and 2010, when Lyon's team peaked, but I don't rush to blame a coach for Grand Final losses. Anyway, he coached St Kilda for 5 seasons, made the finals in 4 of those 5 years and got his team into 2 Grand Finals.
Then he went to Freo. The side he took over won 9 and lost 13 the previous year, including losing their last 7 games of that prior season in a row. They won 15 and lost 9 in his first season. They beat Geelong on the MCG in the Elimination Final. In his second season there, Freo made the Grand Final. They lost to Hawthorn which had been beaten unexpectedly in 2012 and went on to win three in a row. They played finals again in 2014 and 2015. The Freo team that last played a final had an average age of over 27, included only two players who had played less than 50 games and 8 players who had played at least 150 games. They are now in rebuilding mode - the team he put on the park in their last outing against Melbourne included 12 players who had played less than 50 games. The average age of that team was under 24. It contained only two players (Barlow and Hill) who have played over 130 games.
In summary, then, Lyon coached St Kilda for 5 years for 4 seasons of finals and two Grand Finals and Freo for 7 years for 4 seasons of finals, including 1 Grand Final. That's finals in 8 years out of 12 coaching. If Bucks is to be compared favourably with Lyon, Lyon's got to do nothing more with Freo and Collingwood needs to make three Grand Finals (and probably win one) in this and the next 5 seasons.
I think those figures tend to show how delusional some of the views on here are, at the moment, about the relative merits of Bucks' coaching and other current-day coaches. |
Is that you Ross?
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"The last thing he expected WAS THE FIRST THING HE GOT!!!!!"
© Collingwood Crackerjack, 1992 |
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Pies4shaw
pies4shaw
Joined: 08 Oct 2007
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| Collingwood Crackerjack wrote: | | Pies4shaw wrote: | ^ And the comparison is with what?
St Kilda's "ready made team of stars" included, in the last game before Lyon took over, 6 players over 30, and had an average age over 26. That team was on the decline, having one 17:8, 15:9 and 14:9 matches in the three preceding seasons. He rebuilt the team in 2007 (they "bottomed out" at 11, 10 and 1), made the preliminary final at the end of his second season with a team containing 7 players who had played less than 50 games and, by the end of 2009, he put a team on the park that won 18 games in a row, lost two matches in the H&A by a total of 7 points and made the Grand Final (and, if we are being fair about it, we all expected them to win - though we barracked for Geelong that day). It was funny to see St Kilda lose in both 2009 and 2010, when Lyon's team peaked, but I don't rush to blame a coach for Grand Final losses. Anyway, he coached St Kilda for 5 seasons, made the finals in 4 of those 5 years and got his team into 2 Grand Finals.
Then he went to Freo. The side he took over won 9 and lost 13 the previous year, including losing their last 7 games of that prior season in a row. They won 15 and lost 9 in his first season. They beat Geelong on the MCG in the Elimination Final. In his second season there, Freo made the Grand Final. They lost to Hawthorn which had been beaten unexpectedly in 2012 and went on to win three in a row. They played finals again in 2014 and 2015. The Freo team that last played a final had an average age of over 27, included only two players who had played less than 50 games and 8 players who had played at least 150 games. They are now in rebuilding mode - the team he put on the park in their last outing against Melbourne included 12 players who had played less than 50 games. The average age of that team was under 24. It contained only two players (Barlow and Hill) who have played over 130 games.
In summary, then, Lyon coached St Kilda for 5 years for 4 seasons of finals and two Grand Finals and Freo for 7 years for 4 seasons of finals, including 1 Grand Final. That's finals in 8 years out of 12 coaching. If Bucks is to be compared favourably with Lyon, Lyon's got to do nothing more with Freo and Collingwood needs to make three Grand Finals (and probably win one) in this and the next 5 seasons.
I think those figures tend to show how delusional some of the views on here are, at the moment, about the relative merits of Bucks' coaching and other current-day coaches. |
Is that you Ross? |
Fair question!  |
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eddiesmith 
Lets get ready to Rumble
Joined: 23 Nov 2004
Location: Lexus Centre
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| Pies4shaw wrote: | | Any takers this week? |
Next week is the big test, prove that we can still beat up on bottom teams, lose that and the whole season unravels
But if we do win at least we can say we have improved, we haven't been able to beat the bottom sides the last few years |
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MatthewBoydFanClub
Joined: 12 Feb 2007
Location: Elwood
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| Pies4shaw wrote: | | Any takers this week? |
I'm willing to state a case for Buckley even though I'm in Queensland at the moment and haven't sat down yet to watch a replay of the game.
Didn't we have a couple more injuries today? Sidebottom (eye), Langdon (knee), Sier (calf).
WHE is still affected by his knee injury from last week.
We got smashed in the midfield today I'm assuming. Losing Treloar is a major loss.
Grundy was flat not having Cox to assist.
The positives are that Moore was able to cover for Dunn and Greenwood was a lot better today.
Crocker and Daicos are average VFL players at the moment. Maybe not playing Callum Brown was a mistake.
Haven't heard Buckley's media conference yet either, but I don't see what the coach can do when we can't put our best team on the park and the opposition fields their best team in about 6 games. |
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Pies4shaw
pies4shaw
Joined: 08 Oct 2007
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| Greenwood was a lot better? Surely you jest? |
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MatthewBoydFanClub
Joined: 12 Feb 2007
Location: Elwood
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| Pies4shaw wrote: | | Greenwood was a lot better? Surely you jest? |
Only because I haven't watched the game yet. He was terrible last week. He has to be getting better. |
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