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The danger of psycho babble

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think positive Libra

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Joined: 30 Jun 2005
Location: somewhere

PostPosted: Sun Apr 22, 2018 11:00 pm
Post subject: Reply with quote

VicParkTragic wrote:
K wrote:
BucksIsFutureCoach wrote:
...
I highly doubt it was ever intended as an opportunity to indulge bullying. ... In a football environment where you have a number of individuals from a diverse background I would have though LT's would have provided a good vehicle to bring individuals together into a common cause. ...

I don't mean the clubs or LT wanted it to be an exercise in bullying. I don't even think the bullies among the players thought consciously of it that way. (I doubt (m)any in the act of bullying think of it as bullying.) It just seems that LT enabled and encouraged their behaviour.

Youre right it certainly wasnt an invite for bullying. LT see the process as a matter of fact take it on the chin and improve opportunities style approach. The review process asks your peers to consider what you need to stop doing, keep doing and start doing. So some of your feedback (hopefully) will be positive but it can be hard hitting if everyone gets right into it.
In some environments it could be good but youd have to have a crew of people who were completely trusting of each other. And does that exist in the average workplace? Not that I know of.


AFL is a very competitive workplace, not just on the field, but to get on the field, add to that egotistical young men hungry for more, just cant see it as a good thing in that situation. id prefer a more uplifting team spirit builder.

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Piethagoras' Theorem Taurus

the hypotenuse, is always a cakewalk


Joined: 29 May 2006


PostPosted: Tue Apr 24, 2018 4:24 pm
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We could do worse than introduce something like dianetics. I'm certain that with thorough auditing we could erase all those reactive minds and help set up sustained success over the next billion years.
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Geek 

geek


Joined: 06 Apr 2006
Location: Jacana

PostPosted: Tue Apr 24, 2018 6:55 pm
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^ Laughing

I got a big roll of tinfoil I bought from Costco if it will help
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Hiss Taurus



Joined: 09 Jul 2003
Location: Geelong

PostPosted: Tue Apr 24, 2018 11:04 pm
Post subject: YesReply with quote

I think we over complicate the game these days. After all, the majority of players are rather dumb. Just tell them to kick it straight up the guts! Thats about all they are capable of processing. Only In backwoods Australia do we pay so much for so little brain power! Oh I forgot, they do in the US too!
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K 



Joined: 09 Sep 2011


PostPosted: Sat Apr 28, 2018 11:54 pm
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think positive wrote:
VicParkTragic wrote:
...
In some environments it could be good but youd have to have a crew of people who were completely trusting of each other. And does that exist in the average workplace? Not that I know of.

AFL is a very competitive workplace, not just on the field, but to get on the field, add to that egotistical young men hungry for more, just cant see it as a good thing in that situation. id prefer a more uplifting team spirit builder.

Yes, that's another factor: it can be difficult if players are competing for spots in the team or even on the playing list. For example, rumour had it that one of our players was complaining about another being on the list "only because of his family name".
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K 



Joined: 09 Sep 2011


PostPosted: Sun Apr 29, 2018 12:03 am
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https://www.theage.com.au/sport/afl/the-fall-out-from-the-melbourne-pre-season-camp-fiasco-20180316-p4z4oe.html

Quote:

The symbolism surrounding the Melbourne pre-season training camp that never was begins with the name of the mentally torturous three-day exercise. I Dont Quit. ...

... Cancelling the $40,000 camp so late in the day cost Melbourne their $15,000 deposit ... [T]he fall-out has also driven a wedge between the club and the AFL Players Association.
...

... Young men are different beings now even to a player like him who just recently turned 30, and clubs who dont prioritise mental welfare risk paying a heavy price. It was a risk the hardy Jones, after talking with his embarrassed teammates, was not prepared to take.
...

Rookie senior coach Goodwin introduced the brutal two-night camp an exercise punctuated by sleep deprivation, torturous physical assignments and army-style rations on the eve of the 2017 season.

According to one senior player, the damage was done then. Not only because of the injuries incurred by Dom Tyson and Christian Salem but because too few footballers spoke up at the time to either the coach or the leadership group about their misgivings, and resentments were harboured.

And Goodwin and Brendan McCartney underestimated the players concerns. Worried for their spots in a new tough environment post-Paul Roos and desperate not to appear soft, the players did not speak up but their anxiety as the second December camp approached intensified once the 2017 season had ended.


Goodwin and his team were encouraged by Bellamys firm trust in IDQ - run by past and present members of the SOGs who also run security for the Victorian government and Crown ...
...

I spoke to Simon Goodwin and Brendan McCartney about it and explained the camp helps us see how guys react working under pressure and fatigue with teammates. It is a way for me to get information about my players and their strengths and weaknesses so we can help them improve. Its more of a mentally taxing exercise than physical.
...

The players' association says mental illness is the greatest challenge facing football and it was that fact, according to Jones, which forced the issue for him. Jones, who should play his 250th game this season, hopes this experience will force a different kind of growth within the group.

It never would have occurred to him to question the coaches plans but once his teammates did albeit in a roundabout way Jones now views the camp story as a salutary lesson for the older players placing priorities upon mutual tolerance.
...

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David Libra

I dare you to try


Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda

PostPosted: Sun Apr 29, 2018 10:06 am
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This is a great discussion, thanks all. Im also pretty sceptical about these corporate team-building programs, and am astonished to read about the Melbourne fiasco this is the first Ive heard of it! You really start to understand how cults get started with this stuff.
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K 



Joined: 09 Sep 2011


PostPosted: Wed May 02, 2018 2:08 am
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David wrote:
... You really start to understand how cults get started with this stuff.

Yes; that word has been used in relation to Adelaide's camp. They've been through a lot in recent years, including tragedy. It seems understandable, in those extreme circumstances, that minds might become frayed.
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MatthewBoydFanClub 



Joined: 12 Feb 2007
Location: Elwood

PostPosted: Wed May 02, 2018 9:55 am
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For all the mistakes (?) Buckley has made as a senior coach nothing he has done can be compared to the fiascos committed by the Melbourne and Adelaide football clubs, which makes the decision to re-employ Buckley by the club at the end of last season, a very astute decision.
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MatthewBoydFanClub 



Joined: 12 Feb 2007
Location: Elwood

PostPosted: Wed May 02, 2018 10:07 am
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K wrote:
David wrote:
... You really start to understand how cults get started with this stuff.

Yes; that word has been used in relation to Adelaide's camp. They've been through a lot in recent years, including tragedy. It seems understandable, in those extreme circumstances, that minds might become frayed.

Just on that subject, we've been through our own tragedies as well. Phil Walsh was one of our own. McCarthy's death hit us hard. You need to deal with it on an individual basis. We have access to experts in mental health issues who work with players who put their hand up for help (I gather that was the situation with Fasolo). I don't see why though you need to organise elaborate training camps to bring players together. The camp for first year players with the senior coach was enough (which I think we stopped anyway).
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watt price tully Scorpio



Joined: 15 May 2007


PostPosted: Wed May 02, 2018 3:12 pm
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FrankieGoesToCollingwood wrote:
We could do worse than introduce something like dianetics. I'm certain that with thorough auditing we could erase all those reactive minds and help set up sustained success over the next billion years.


I agree. L Ron Cupboard for me. I'm a firm believer in dietetics. In fact I have an eating disorder: Bulimia minus the purging. Not just the seafood diet but the cold nose diet: keep your head in the fridge for far too long

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watt price tully Scorpio



Joined: 15 May 2007


PostPosted: Wed May 02, 2018 3:16 pm
Post subject: Re: The danger of psycho babbleReply with quote

RudeBoy wrote:
No doubt each case is different, and it's probably not fair to tar a whole 'profession' with one brush, but I reckon there's been a lot of charlatan snake oil salesman, peddling alternative pop psycho babble to footy clubs, with the promise of giving their teams an extra edge.
...........

Maybe it's time to realise that properly trained psychologists can have an important role to play in dealing with individual problems at clubs, and perhaps some input in promoting a healthy team culture. However, it is a risky and potentially damaging process, to buy into pop 'psychologists' peddling mumbo jumbo. FWIW, my brother is a psychologist and he is amazed at how gullible footy clubs have been in paying large consultancy fees for what he considers to be rubbish and damaging services.


I agree. Let's start with Dr Timothy Leary's approach; after all, he was born in Springfield.

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K 



Joined: 09 Sep 2011


PostPosted: Wed May 02, 2018 6:07 pm
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BucksIsFutureCoach wrote:
K wrote:
David wrote:
... You really start to understand how cults get started with this stuff.

Yes; that word has been used in relation to Adelaide's camp. They've been through a lot in recent years, including tragedy. It seems understandable, in those extreme circumstances, that minds might become frayed.

Just on that subject, we've been through our own tragedies as well. Phil Walsh was one of our own. McCarthy's death hit us hard. ...

Yes, a significant point. Thinking about it makes me think about other sports, too. For example, the Phil Hughes tragedy was the beginning of the end for some players.
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qldmagpie67 



Joined: 18 Dec 2008


PostPosted: Wed May 02, 2018 6:14 pm
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I've seen several various approaches to different ideas like leading teams and army style camps.
When I was involved in the NRL our coach ran a army style camp on a couple occasions. It wasn't popular with the players but generally taking people outside there comfort zone isn't a popular decision. You could say it worked once because we won the premiership that year on 2 other occasions we didn't so make of that what you will.
As for leading teams we tried that once (not with leading teams) it was a failure. Reason being when your working with a large group of people they all have vastly different personalities and vastly different goals they want to achieve as individuals along with team goals.
The club has used a guy called Phil Jauncy who works part time and only when the senior coach thinks a player or group of players might need some help. He works mostly one on one and some times it's as simple as a player might be having a relationship issue or a financial issue and that is impacting on there mental state.
I had my door knocked on more times than I care to remember by the head coach or a player or players manager looking for a change in a players payment schedule for some reason or another.
You see for as much as some players earn or how often they get paid some times like everyone they have over committed themselves and more often than not they feel embarrassed to ask for help.
In 1998 we changed totally the way we paid players. They went from monthly salary payments with quarterly match and bonus payments to weekly payments like a normal person receives there wages. This was on the advice of Jauncey who said financial stress was large factor on many players.
We then expanded our service to include dealing directly with banks to arrange personal finances lenders for a player and tailor there payments to suits the financial institutions requirements.
The point is taking away 1 less stress from a player can make a large difference in performance.
You see most of the guys playing professional sport aren't academics. There not dunces either but the majority are just normally educated people who's focus for most of there teen years has been spent preparing for a career in sport not in business.
All of a sudden they are handed large sums of money and just play footy. Some handle it well, some have great managers or family who help some waste it and struggle some just lose perspective on reality with it.
Everyone is different. I always spoke to new recruits or players who re-signing of there total package because more often than not they only look at a bottom line and think that's what there earning. They don't realise the ATO has there hand out, there manager has thee hand out and then they need certain levels of personal insurance against an outside accident meaning they can't play footy.
You see football clubs are more than just football clubs now due to the income streams.
I know Collingwood help the players well off the field. Dayne Beams told me that when he signed his first upgraded deal (after rookie deal) Eddie arranged a financial advisor to go through want he wanted to achieve financially from his football career. His priority was to own a home.
Some players have different goals so personalising any form of help be it financial or otherwise can make a massive difference in performance
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K 



Joined: 09 Sep 2011


PostPosted: Fri May 04, 2018 7:43 pm
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qldmagpie67 wrote:
I've seen several various approaches to different ideas like leading teams and army style camps.
... army style camp on a couple occasions. ...
As for leading teams we tried that once (not with leading teams) it was a failure. ...
The club has used a guy called Phil Jauncy who works part time and only when the senior coach thinks a player or group of players might need some help. ...

Do you remember how much each of these cost? (I was speculating about this on the previous page of this thread.) Clearly, that's also a practical consideration, because, even if no harm is done, that's money that could have been spent elsewhere.

Phil Jauncy's name has appeared in this thread before, when Aker praised him. (See page 3, i.e. the comment http://magpies.net/nick/bb/viewtopic.php?p=1829973#1829973 .) Jauncy apparently sees himself as a bit of a contrarian (an interesting topic for another comment).
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