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Wokko
Come and take it.
Joined: 04 Oct 2005
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Mugwump
Joined: 28 Jul 2007 Location: Between London and Melbourne
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^ David, people have been saying that community involvement is crucial for decades. It’s basic change theory, that people resist imposed change, and it has been part of the rhetoric on Aboriginal Affairs since ATSIC days. The NT intervention challenged that doctrine in some specific areas touching child abuse, I suppose, with seemingly mixed effects (though it did upset the UNHRC, the ultimate top-down interpolaters, which is often a good sign)..... But there is nothing new in that rhetoric, really. And you’re right, there are no magic bullets. I don’t believe that Aborigines are somehow romantically different to other humans, so I suspect the best thing that could be done , in the long run, is to disband unsustainable remote settlements and help Aboriginal Australians join the urban global world. But i doubt that is achievable on any terms that I, or others, would find acceptable. _________________ Two more flags before I die!
Last edited by Mugwump on Wed Jan 17, 2018 5:12 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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HAL
Please don't shout at me - I can't help it.
Joined: 17 Mar 2003
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Surely something new in that rhetoric. For real. |
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David
I dare you to try
Joined: 27 Jul 2003 Location: Andromeda
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Mugwump wrote: | I don’t believe that Aborigines are somehow romantically different to other humans, so I suspect the best thing that could be done , in the long run, is to disband unsustainable remote settlements and help Aboriginal Australians join the urban global world. But i doubt that is achievable on any terms that I, or others, would find acceptable. |
I used to think that, but I’ve changed my mind in recent years – I think it really does come down to that whole thing about autonomy. It’s not that forced change is just too “insensitive” or politically unpalatable or something, but that it really doesn’t work on any pragmatic level. People will resist, and we’ll be back at square one.
Reconciliation may now seem like a feel-good buzzword of the Keating/Howard era, but I think it’s genuinely important – Aboriginal Australians have to feel that they belong in this country, that authorities and institutions aren’t out to get them and that their history, ways of life and beliefs are respected in order to engage more deeply with Australian society, reap more benefits from it and integrate more successfully. That, I think, more than anything else, is why symbolic stuff like treaty and Australia Day matter. I just happen to think that changing the date of Australia Day is good for the rest of us, too. _________________ All watched over by machines of loving grace |
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Mugwump
Joined: 28 Jul 2007 Location: Between London and Melbourne
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If you can show me any evidence that Aboriginal Australia’s condition has materially improved since Mabo, since the Keating speech, since Rudd’s sorry, since ATSIC, since all of the reconciliation and atonement rhetoric of the last thirty years, I’d be interested, for I do not sense it. We may have made progress on deaths in custody, but that seems to reflect operating protocols rather than the preoccupations of urban professionals. Real change happens at that level, but the latte feelgood factor is a lot less.
Autonomy is a very broad and nice-sounding concept, and (pace the NT intervention) it has been mainstream belief in Aboriginal Affairs for a long time now.....but people and organisations often do not want what is rationally best for them, and autonomy and accountability are often incompatible. I don’t think that ordinarily entitles us to override their will ; but i think you might be more sceptical of its medicinal qualities.
One more thing - Aboriginal people may feel that “the authorities and institutions are out to get them” and that “they are not part of the country” ,but we have had departments of Aboriginal Affairs dedicated to trying to improve their welfare for about 50 years. We have also spent far more per head on them for at least as long. Their culture has been the subject of positive primary school curricula since the 1960s (I know, I was there). There have been policy errors, but on balance, if they really feel that way, I’d suggest that is because it has been manufactured by people pursuing power, patronage and resources. _________________ Two more flags before I die! |
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Skids
Quitting drinking will be one of the best choices you make in your life.
Joined: 11 Sep 2007 Location: Joined 3/6/02 . Member #175
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This is what the bleeding hearts and the apologists are responsible for....
Man knocked unconscious in brutal teen attack.
https://thewest.com.au/news/crime/teen-gang-well-known-to-city-business-owner-ng-b88717691z
They breed a culture that will never be satisfied. These boys wouldn't have a clue about their real culture or heritage, all they want is conflict and the drum beaters fuel it with their nonsense. _________________ Don't count the days, make the days count. |
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David
I dare you to try
Joined: 27 Jul 2003 Location: Andromeda
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Did you mean to post that in this thread? Do you know something about this story that hasn’t been reported? Because all I see is a story about teenage boys fighting and causing trouble (like that happens anywhere ever!), with no mention of their ethnic background. Whatever the case, seems a bit of a stretch (to put it nicely) to link this to the ‘Change the Date’ campaign. _________________ All watched over by machines of loving grace |
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David
I dare you to try
Joined: 27 Jul 2003 Location: Andromeda
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As is the case with so many other culture wars arguments...
http://www.smh.com.au/federal-politics/political-news/most-dont-care-when-australia-day-is-held-poll-finds-20180116-h0j0w9.html
Quote: | A majority of voters would not mind if Australia Day was shifted to a different date and most don't know why it's currently held on January 26.
New polling also reveals that only about a third of Australians – 37 per cent – realise the date is offensive to many Indigenous people because it represents the beginning of the dispossession and violence of British colonisation.
As the political and community debate about the "change the date" movement continues to intensify, the Research Now survey of 1417 people suggests nearly all Australians – 84 per cent – think it is important the country has a national day of celebration.
But 56 per cent say they don't mind when the day occurs, challenging the notion that Australians see January 26 as sacred or untouchable. |
Good to see the Australian penchant for being laidback and not caring too much for sacred cows is still alive! _________________ All watched over by machines of loving grace |
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Mugwump
Joined: 28 Jul 2007 Location: Between London and Melbourne
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37%.....Well, that says a great deal about the state of our decayed education system, does it not ? If you train people to forget their history and the way it secured their freedom, you can lead them to believe anything. Ignorance and philistine civic amnesia are not “laid back”, they are the education of epsilons.
We were taught extensively about the First Fleet in state primary schools in the sixties. Once the left captured teaching this clearly ceased to happen, judging from that survey. Taught what to think, but never how to think. 37%. Remember that number, for they are the potential obituarists of a once free and well-educated nation.
As for “violence and dispossession”, there is rank one-note ideology masquerading as serious news to educated ignorance. There is much evidence, in paleopathology and testaments of early settlers, that the first Australians were very violent, inter-tribally and intratribally, especially to women. Dispossession is certainly true, but of course it’s casually coupled with “violence” as though there was no rule of law and licence to murder. Soon no one will remember anything that is not politically defined. _________________ Two more flags before I die!
Last edited by Mugwump on Thu Jan 18, 2018 12:23 pm; edited 3 times in total |
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Skids
Quitting drinking will be one of the best choices you make in your life.
Joined: 11 Sep 2007 Location: Joined 3/6/02 . Member #175
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David wrote: | Did you mean to post that in this thread? Do you know something about this story that hasn’t been reported? Because all I see is a story about teenage boys fighting and causing trouble (like that happens anywhere ever!), with
no mention of their ethnic background.
Whatever the case, seems a bit of a stretch (to put it nicely) to link this to the ‘Change the Date’ campaign. |
Their race is obvious David.
My point here is that, constant stirring the pot in regards to, not only change the date, but other aboriginal affairs, does nothing other than fuel hatred and anger.
Come over here to Perth and walk through Northbridge, not only at night, but during the day. The anger and aggressive behaviour of gangs of aboriginal youths is frightening.
I left a work party in the city just after Christmas, it was 11.30pm and I was waiting for my Uber. I was approached by a gang of 5 aboriginals, the oldest would have been maybe 15.
They asked me for a smoke, when I said I don't smoke, one of the girls kicked me from behind. I was knocked to the ground, punched, kicked & spat on. Yelling at me "white %$^%$£$%", "dog" & various other names. The arrival of the uber driver being the thing that stopped the attack.
I wasn't badly hurt, a few scratches and bruises and my shirt buttons ripped off (lucky I know how to handle an attack). _________________ Don't count the days, make the days count. |
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Pies4shaw
pies4shaw
Joined: 08 Oct 2007
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Perhaps they should be sent back to South Sudan, too, Skids? |
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HAL
Please don't shout at me - I can't help it.
Joined: 17 Mar 2003
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Skids wrote: | [quote="David"]Did you mean to post that in this thread? Do you know something about this story that hasn’t been reported? Because all I see is a story about teenage boys fighting and causing trouble (like that happens anywhere ever!), with
[b]no mention of their ethnic background[/b].
[b]Whatever the case, seems a bit of a stretch (to put it nicely) to link this to the ‘Change the Date’ campaign[/b].[/quote]
Their race is obvious David.
My point here is that, constant stirring the pot in regards to, not only change the date, but other aboriginal affairs, does nothing other than fuel hatred and anger.
Come over here to Perth and walk through Northbridge, not only at night, but during the day. The anger and aggressive behaviour of gangs of aboriginal youths is frightening.
I left a work party in the city just after Christmas, it was 11.30pm and I was waiting for my Uber. I was approached by a gang of 5 aboriginals, the oldest would have been maybe 15.
They asked me for a smoke, when I said I don't smoke, one of the girls kicked me from behind. I was knocked to the ground, punched, kicked & spat on. Yelling at me "white %$^%$£$%", "dog" & various other names. The arrival of the uber driver being the thing that stopped the attack.
I wasn't badly hurt, a few scratches and bruises and my shirt buttons ripped off (lucky I know how to handle an attack). | Oops. Too much data. |
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Wokko
Come and take it.
Joined: 04 Oct 2005
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David wrote: | As is the case with so many other culture wars arguments...
http://www.smh.com.au/federal-politics/political-news/most-dont-care-when-australia-day-is-held-poll-finds-20180116-h0j0w9.html
Quote: | A majority of voters would not mind if Australia Day was shifted to a different date and most don't know why it's currently held on January 26.
New polling also reveals that only about a third of Australians – 37 per cent – realise the date is offensive to many Indigenous people because it represents the beginning of the dispossession and violence of British colonisation.
As the political and community debate about the "change the date" movement continues to intensify, the Research Now survey of 1417 people suggests nearly all Australians – 84 per cent – think it is important the country has a national day of celebration.
But 56 per cent say they don't mind when the day occurs, challenging the notion that Australians see January 26 as sacred or untouchable. |
Good to see the Australian penchant for being laidback and not caring too much for sacred cows is still alive! |
Says more about the abysmal state of our history education. Learn all sorts of crap about everything except our own history. Howard got a lot wrong, but the national history curriculum was one of the shining lights. Of course the ear wax eating twat got rid of it. |
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David
I dare you to try
Joined: 27 Jul 2003 Location: Andromeda
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Mugwump wrote: | 37%.....Well, that says a great deal about the state of our decayed education system, does it not ? If you train people to forget their history and the way it secured their freedom, you can lead them to believe anything. Ignorance and philistine civic amnesia are not “laid back”, they are the education of epsilons.
We were taught extensively about the First Fleet in state primary schools in the sixties. Once the left captured teaching this clearly ceased to happen, judging from that survey. Taught what to think, but never how to think. 37%. Remember that number, for they are the potential obituarists of a once free and well-educated nation.
As for “violence and dispossession”, there is rank one-note ideology masquerading as serious news to educated ignorance. There is much evidence, in paleopathology and testaments of early settlers, that the first Australians were very violent, intra-tribally and intratribal, especially to women. Dispossession is certainly true, but of course it’s casually coupled with “violence” as though there was no rule of law or widespread murder. Soon no one will remember anything that is not politically defined. |
Worth pointing out that no-one on the left or interested in Indigenous politics would actually think that ignorance about the date or circumstances of the first landing is a good thing. This is why I've never agreed with you that changing the date involves some kind of erasure of history – if anything, it really must be taught as a vital (and, for many, tragic) date in the history of this nation. Merely keeping Australia Day on that date in perpetuity doesn't seem to be aiding public education all that well. _________________ All watched over by machines of loving grace |
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Mugwump
Joined: 28 Jul 2007 Location: Between London and Melbourne
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^ it’s not meant to be an education. Education is.
It’s meant to be day to reflect on what was gained (by most) and lost (by some) from the fact that Britain settled Australia, and to celebrate what generations of Australians made of that institutional fact. _________________ Two more flags before I die!
Last edited by Mugwump on Thu Jan 18, 2018 12:28 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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