Time Trial 8/1/2018
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Skids 
Quitting drinking will be one of the best choices you make in your life.
Joined: 11 Sep 2007
Location: Joined 3/6/02 . Member #175
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The water boy is going to run past this bloke.
Embarrassing for an AFL listed player to run such a slow time.
Are we sure he didn't stop to take a piss??
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Don't count the days, make the days count. |
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E
Joined: 05 May 2010
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| Pebbles Rocks wrote: | | E wrote: | | K wrote: | | stui magpie wrote: | | To put it in context, the world record for a 2k run is 4 min 44 seconds |
El Guerrouj's world record is more precisely 4:44.79.
The best context would be all the times of players at other clubs, but these never seem to be given to the media, so the media keep churning out reports with who came where, which is largely irrelevant.
So Flip ran 6 min. flat & Kirby 8:14. Let's put those in the context of age records.
The world record for 9-year-olds is reportedly 5:59 ...
and for 82-year-olds it's reportedly 8:06.
I agree that if there were no correlation between 2k times and football aerobic capacity then the clubs would not bother running them, so dismissing the times is equivalent to saying the fitness staff are either clueless or tricking the playing group. |
...and i ran 2k in 6.20 when i was 12 years old. It is a disgrace than an athlete in an endurance sport takes longer than 8 minutes to run 2 ks. a total disgrace!! i am shocked that he is that unfit. I really cant see him ever making it if he is that limited (given the demands of the modern game). He is going to have to be very very special at the other things he is good at to allow something of this limitation to exist in one of our players. |
Your time would have put you in the top 8 in that time trial and you were 9yo?! I call BS on that. |
i never said i was 9. i said i was 12. Now admittedly, I was a state champion 1,500 runner at 12, I understand that professional footballers dont run as fast as athletes and so even though i was only 12 its not totally surprising that me running my best time at 12 came in slightly ahead of adult professionals who were running it as part of a training program and so probably not performing at their best. But to beat a professional footballer by a minute and a half as a 12 yo is just ridiculous! Either he is lazy, wasnt fresh for the run or he is never going to make it if that's the best he's got after 18 months at a professional organization where he is meant to be focusing on his fitness.
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Ohhh, the Premiership's a cakewalk ....... |
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E
Joined: 05 May 2010
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| K wrote: | | Albert Parker wrote: | A collation of the best recorded times over 2km in the world - by age
2 000 METRES
6 7:43.8 Daniel Skandera USA 2 Nov 07 Santa Rosa CA 5 Oct 14
7 7:09.6 Daniel Skandera USA 2 Nov 07 Santa Rosa CA 4 Oct 15
8 6:54.6 Daniel Skandera USA 2 Nov 07 Santa Rosa CA 27 Oct 16
9 6:28.6 Daniel Skandera USA 2 Nov 07 Oakland CA 11 Oct 17
10 6:28.4 Reyes Est�vez ESP 2 Aug 76 Barcelona 9 May 87
11 6:15.80 William Levay SWE 27 Aug 96 Stockholm 26 Aug 08
12 6:04.1 Lucas Bourgoyne USA 7 Apr 01 Houston TX 30 Mar 14
13 5:37.33 Dalibor Balgač CRO 22 Sep 77 Vara�din 3 Aug 91
... |
This is interesting, because it contradicts the 5:59 for 9-year-olds I quoted previously. It could be due to restrictions on the type of meet, timing system, etc. e.g. Hand timing might be ignored, even though it's not all that important for long distances. Along those lines, note that the dominant distance-running countries are not represented in that list (until 19-yr-olds), which mainly contains wealthy countries. |
i also dispute these facts. Here is a list of Australian only best times for various events in little athletics for the under 12 (the division i won states in).
I find it absurd to think that Peter Johnston couldn't have run an additional 500- meters at the end of this 1,500 in less than 1 minute 40. And he is just a random Australian (albeit a brilliant one)! he probably doesnt have a recorded 2km time though because it wasnt an official distance on the track (which might expalin the slow times up to 12yo)!!
Now while 4.25 is off the charts brilliant for a 1,500 meters by a 12yo in Australia, 4.40 was always the pace you had to aim for to win states in the 1,500 as a 12 yo and many boys were around that pace EVERY year (and that was over 30 years ago). And that is only Victoria, not Australia and certainly not the entire WORLD!
Having run 1.5km at 3 minute KM pace, its hard to imagine dropping back to 4 minute KM pace for the final 500 meters. Therefore, I'd suggest that most state level 12yo 1,500 meter runners (lets say the top 20 each year) in Victoria alone would easily do 2kms under 6.30 (and therefore make the top 8 of Collingwood's time trial)! So call bullshit all you like....
By the way, not totally sure of the math, but i think Craig Topperwein (at 12 yo) was on pace to beat Kirby for 2kms doing the WALK!!!
BOYS UNDER 12
400 metres 1979 Fred MARTIN WA 55.14 {S}
800 metres 2014 Adam SPENCER VIC 2.10.26
1500 metres 1980 Peter JOHNSTON NSW 4.25.3
1500m Walk 1984 Craig TOPPERWEIN SA 6.31.6
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Ohhh, the Premiership's a cakewalk ....... |
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feKKo
Joined: 27 Nov 2009
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Before we do to much bashing did he have a time from pre season last year?
Or was he injured?
Could have improved..... |
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Maggie51
Joined: 11 Jan 2018
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| I've watched kayle Kirby in almost all his VFL games. I've seen him run down many an opposition player over 20m and lay some of the best tackles you'll see. And when he lays a tackle, they know about it. He is very good at locking the ball in the forward 50m and knows where the goals are. He is never going to be an endurance runner, but is a smart footballer, a good overhead mark and can kick straight. Maybe the reason Collingwood and most other teams have trouble kicking is because recruiters place more emphasis on endurance, athleticism, etc than footballing ability. |
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RudeBoy
Joined: 28 Nov 2005
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| Maggie51 wrote: | | I've watched kayle Kirby in almost all his VFL games. I've seen him run down many an opposition player over 20m and lay some of the best tackles you'll see. And when he lays a tackle, they know about it. He is very good at locking the ball in the forward 50m and knows where the goals are. He is never going to be an endurance runner, but is a smart footballer, a good overhead mark and can kick straight. Maybe the reason Collingwood and most other teams have trouble kicking is because recruiters place more emphasis on endurance, athleticism, etc than footballing ability. |
Correct weight.  |
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watt price tully 
Joined: 15 May 2007
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| Maggie51 wrote: | | I've watched kayle Kirby in almost all his VFL games. I've seen him run down many an opposition player over 20m and lay some of the best tackles you'll see. And when he lays a tackle, they know about it. He is very good at locking the ball in the forward 50m and knows where the goals are. He is never going to be an endurance runner, but is a smart footballer, a good overhead mark and can kick straight. Maybe the reason Collingwood and most other teams have trouble kicking is because recruiters place more emphasis on endurance, athleticism, etc than footballing ability. |
My god:
1. You're being entriely rational;
2. You didn't quote the times you ran as a kid as though that has any relevance; and,
3. You haven't called him a dud without any actual basis apart from reports of 2 x 2 km time tirals as though that is the only factor that matters in football to the exclusion of all else.
Frankly I'm disappointed.
Even Matty on Big footy (Matty's123) had the temerity to point this out:
" I was at training yesterday, and it's obvious the club knows where Kirby is at in terms of fitness.
He completed most of the session, then just before the end went inside for a few minutes. He came back out with his running shoes on and one of the fitness guys ran him up and own the field, almost from end to end, repeatedly.
At no stage did he stop, at no stage did he look to pull out of not do as instructed.
The time trial times obviously show he needs to work, and work hard, but from what I've seen, and been told by others who have attended training sessions of late, he's as committed as any player during training".
I'm shocked that the club knows more about Kirby than some ? many poster worriers on Nicks do often by reverting to the times they were legends in the own lunch box when they were infants.
I saw Kirby on a good few occasions in the VFL & suggested he wasn't ready to be elevated to the firsts but loved what I saw in almost every game I attended.
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“I even went as far as becoming a Southern Baptist until I realised they didn’t keep ‘em under long enough” Kinky Friedman |
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Maggie51
Joined: 11 Jan 2018
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| I agree "What Price Tully". I didn't think Kirby was ready to be elevated last year either. Not because of ability, but because he undid a lot of his good work with regular undisciplined free kicks and also when he got into a bit of a scrap, he always wanted to go on with it and gave away frequent 50m penalties. He was taken off the field one game (I think against Bombers at Windy Hill) and got a severe talking to from Buckley who was watching from the stand, and Jarrod Rivers. It was the first time he had been tagged and he didn't like it. He seemed to be a lot more controlled after that for the rest of the season. For someone who only turned 19 in October, he is as tough as old boots and never takes a backward step. He reminds me of Taylor Adams when he first came to us. He never knew when to stop in a scrap either, but now he plays with controlled aggression. There's a big difference. I really hope Kirby makes it because he certainly has ability and seems to do the unexpected which I like. Time will tell. |
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watt price tully
Joined: 15 May 2007
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| Maggie51 wrote: | | I agree "What Price Tully". I didn't think Kirby was ready to be elevated last year either. Not because of ability, but because he undid a lot of his good work with regular undisciplined free kicks and also when he got into a bit of a scrap, he always wanted to go on with it and gave away frequent 50m penalties. He was taken off the field one game (I think against Bombers at Windy Hill) and got a severe talking to from Buckley who was watching from the stand, and Jarrod Rivers. It was the first time he had been tagged and he didn't like it. He seemed to be a lot more controlled after that for the rest of the season. For someone who only turned 19 in October, he is as tough as old boots and never takes a backward step. He reminds me of Taylor Adams when he first came to us. He never knew when to stop in a scrap either, but now he plays with controlled aggression. There's a big difference. I really hope Kirby makes it because he certainly has ability and seems to do the unexpected which I like. Time will tell. |
Yeah, I went to that game too. Essendon's senior ruckman kept on looking at our junior rucks with an intent to hurt in the centre-ball ups - he played a key role in beating "us".
I remember Kirby in that game too. He really improved a lot after that game. Mind you the team was down not just him for periods of time.
Rode my bike that day in a time trial from Caulfield South to Windy Hill (& back) rode like the wind but I'm no footy player  (nor a flash bike rider truth be told)
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“I even went as far as becoming a Southern Baptist until I realised they didn’t keep ‘em under long enough” Kinky Friedman |
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K
Joined: 09 Sep 2011
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| feKKo wrote: | Before we do to much bashing did he have a time from pre season last year?
Or was he injured?
Could have improved..... |
Well, feKKo, let's just say that he could not have got worse than last year's preseason time.
They've done two time trials this preseason, and both times have been comparable. |
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K
Joined: 09 Sep 2011
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| Maggie51 wrote: | | I agree "What Price Tully". I didn't think Kirby was ready to be elevated last year either. Not because of ability, but because he undid a lot of his good work with regular undisciplined free kicks and also when he got into a bit of a scrap, he always wanted to go on with it and gave away frequent 50m penalties. He was taken off the field one game (I think against Bombers at Windy Hill) and got a severe talking to from Buckley who was watching from the stand, and Jarrod Rivers. It was the first time he had been tagged and he didn't like it. He seemed to be a lot more controlled after that for the rest of the season. ... |
That's interesting. Thanks for that info. |
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K
Joined: 09 Sep 2011
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| watt price tully wrote: | ...
My god:
1. You're being entriely rational;
2. You didn't quote the times you ran as a kid as though that has any relevance; and,
3. You haven't called him a dud without any actual basis apart from reports of 2 x 2 km time tirals as though that is the only factor that matters in football to the exclusion of all else.
Frankly I'm disappointed.
Even Matty on Big footy (Matty's123) had the temerity to point this out: <snip>
I'm shocked that the club knows more about Kirby than some ? many poster worriers on Nicks do often by reverting to the times they were legends in the own lunch box when they were infants.
I saw Kirby on a good few occasions in the VFL & suggested he wasn't ready to be elevated to the firsts but loved what I saw in almost every game I attended. |
If only everyone could be "entriely rational", right? (Okay, that wasn't a great shot, but I need time to warm up. )
Seriously, this thread is currently short enough to check easily who said what, and no one has said that Kirby is a dud. (For example, npalm said: "I really hope Special K can improve his stamina. I'd love to see him make it.") I also do not think anyone believes that aerobic fitness is "the only factor that matters in football to the exclusion of all else". Would you care to nominate who you think does?
The point is that in modern AFL football, whether we like it or not, there are many requirements. Weaknesses can be compensated to an extent by strengths --- after all, there is no complete player currently in the AFL --- but there are certain minimum standards in each area. If you are below the minimum that's required in one area, then it may require almost superhuman performance in other areas to compensate sufficiently to have a fruitful AFL career. We can, of course, debate what that minimum is. No one suggested he needed to threaten the (open) world record. Swoop suggested a goal of around 7:30.
Regarding the club's alleged wisdom, I think on this matter the club seems to be in agreement with the criticism of Kirby's aerobic capacity. No one on this thread has potted the club for drafting Kirby. As I said in a previous post, I don't think we would have been able to draft him at that spot if he had reasonable fitness (and Richmond supposedly were confident enough of his undesirability to plan to take him as a rookie).
The truth is that the real example of people insisting they know better than the club is the deluge of posts throughout last year ignoring Kirby's fitness and demanding that Buckley give him senior games. In terms of Kirby's fitness, the real target of abuse has been Buckley, not Kirby.
A final note: it's okay to be a poster worrier; it's not okay to be a keyboard warrior. |
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watt price tully
Joined: 15 May 2007
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| K wrote: | | watt price tully wrote: | ...
My god:
1. You're being entriely rational;
2. You didn't quote the times you ran as a kid as though that has any relevance; and,
3. You haven't called him a dud without any actual basis apart from reports of 2 x 2 km time tirals as though that is the only factor that matters in football to the exclusion of all else.
Frankly I'm disappointed.
Even Matty on Big footy (Matty's123) had the temerity to point this out: <snip>
I'm shocked that the club knows more about Kirby than some ? many poster worriers on Nicks do often by reverting to the times they were legends in the own lunch box when they were infants.
I saw Kirby on a good few occasions in the VFL & suggested he wasn't ready to be elevated to the firsts but loved what I saw in almost every game I attended. |
If only everyone could be "entriely rational", right? (Okay, that wasn't a great shot, but I need time to warm up. )
Seriously, this thread is currently short enough to check easily who said what, and no one has said that Kirby is a dud. (For example, npalm said: "I really hope Special K can improve his stamina. I'd love to see him make it.") I also do not think anyone believes that aerobic fitness is "the only factor that matters in football to the exclusion of all else". Would you care to nominate who you think does?
The point is that in modern AFL football, whether we like it or not, there are many requirements. Weaknesses can be compensated to an extent by strengths --- after all, there is no complete player currently in the AFL --- but there are certain minimum standards in each area. If you are below the minimum that's required in one area, then it may require almost superhuman performance in other areas to compensate sufficiently to have a fruitful AFL career. We can, of course, debate what that minimum is. No one suggested he needed to threaten the (open) world record. Swoop suggested a goal of around 7:30.
Regarding the club's alleged wisdom, I think on this matter the club seems to be in agreement with the criticism of Kirby's aerobic capacity. No one on this thread has potted the club for drafting Kirby. As I said in a previous post, I don't think we would have been able to draft him at that spot if he had reasonable fitness (and Richmond supposedly were confident enough of his undesirability to plan to take him as a rookie).
The truth is that the real example of people insisting they know better than the club is the deluge of posts throughout last year ignoring Kirby's fitness and demanding that Buckley give him senior games. In terms of Kirby's fitness, the real target of abuse has been Buckley, not Kirby.
A final note: it's okay to be a poster worrier; it's not okay to be a keyboard warrior. |
Stop being such a literalist. You miss the woods for the trees not for the first time and spell out the obvious which I'm sure is impressive for you but ....where was I....... yawn....
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“I even went as far as becoming a Southern Baptist until I realised they didn’t keep ‘em under long enough” Kinky Friedman |
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K
Joined: 09 Sep 2011
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| watt price tully wrote: | ...
Stop being such a literalist. You miss the woods for the trees not for the first time and spell out the obvious which I'm sure is impressive for you but ....where was I....... yawn.... |
What woods? Here are the woods:
You pretty much implied that anyone who either expressed concerns about his time-trail performance or agreed that it needs to be better to make it at AFL level was denouncing the kid or the club's patience with him. Neither is true or fair to those posters.
What is true is that plenty of Nicksters actually have done the opposite: denounced the coach for not playing him in 2017, when the coaching group have always made it clear he's not ready, a point of view you agree with.
Those basic points aren't trees. You previously raised the spectre of straw-man arguments, but when you use what look a lot like straw-man arguments yourself, you then claim others are being literalists who miss the woods for the trees. |
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watt price tully
Joined: 15 May 2007
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^ This is getting tedious.
This is from you:
"One can remain excited about his prospects without pretending that his aerobic fitness isn't a problem".
You're right, you do straw man quite well. I dips my lid.
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“I even went as far as becoming a Southern Baptist until I realised they didn’t keep ‘em under long enough” Kinky Friedman |
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