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Crimes that deserve the death penalty?

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think positive Libra

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 31, 2017 12:15 pm
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The guy who started the Hird to Collingwood rumour. Electric chair. Now.
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think positive Libra

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 31, 2017 5:44 pm
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Men ma y u rot on hell u insensitive pricks
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David Libra

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 31, 2017 6:25 pm
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What, all of us? Razz
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stui magpie 

suge min pikk


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 31, 2017 7:11 pm
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David wrote:


I have no intention of avoiding your point, which is if I'm paraphrasing your post correctly that people's worth or value depends on what they do. It's an entirely valid opinion, though one that isn't, as far as I can tell, currently reflected in our justice system. You get the same sentence for murdering John the Baptist as a gangland figure, once all mitigating factors are taken out of the equation (happy to be corrected if wrong!). Likewise, upstanding members of the community aren't prioritised on emergency surgery lists. Nevertheless, I can't say that your view is wrong; simply that I don't agree with it.

The reason I believe that human worth is independent of behaviour or externally perceived merit is that I view human life (and lives) as precious, complex, intelligent and ultimately better than any work of art in terms of its scope and meaning. To assess the value of lives on what they've done is simply to make human life a means to an end. But to what end? Human life doesn't really have a purpose beyond the fact of its own existence.


I generally agree with what Mugwump said, but I'll add a few points.

firstly I'd argue the definition "what you've done" is too narrow. broaden that to how you behave and even what you can add to society as these all contribute to your worth to society.

In your argument about murdering John the baptist vs a gangland killer, I dare say the mitigating factors would take into account a whole lot of things, but like your favourite trolley car example, if you could pull a lever and save one or the other from death, who are you more likely to choose?

In regard to your last point, human life may not have a greater purpose, but each individual makes their own way and are judged and valued by others accordingly.

Who has the greater worth? The mother who does her best to raise her children or the father who comes home drunk every night and beats the mother and children?

If you were starting a new colony, choosing a housemate or picking a sporting team, would you just select first come first served as everyone has equal value or would you choose based on what value or worth they could add?

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Mugwump 



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PostPosted: Thu Aug 31, 2017 10:14 pm
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I tend to think of the death penalty as theoretically defensible in a world of perfect judgement, but practically impossible to defend because of the fallibility of trial processes in finding the truth.

One of the tricky questions, though, is why I find the death penalty theoretically reasonable, but torture not. Both are, of course, forms of corporal punishment, yet I think of torture as intrinsically disgusting and barbarous and unjustifiable, and I suspect many ordinary people feel the same.

I suppose it is because the infliction of pain is simply vengeful, whereas the swift termination of life, as dispassionately as possible, is purposeful : it returns the community to a state of relative safety through the extinction of its enemy. Torture (by which I mean post-judicial corporal punishment) does not seem to have any restorative benefit to the community at all.

It is one thing to turn existence into nothingness as swiftly as possible (or, if you are religious, to refer the matter to a higher court) ; it is another, far more barbarous thing, to turn existence into hell for no obvious benefit to anyone.

Do you instinctively find torture and capital punishment equivalently bad ? Or one "less bad" than the other ? Or one quite reasonable and the other not . If so, why?

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David Libra

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 01, 2017 4:39 am
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I think that's a good delineation of the two issues, and helps to demonstrate why I oppose the death penalty because, to me, it really isn't sufficiently purposeful in that it doesn't serve any protective function that life imprisonment doesn't already fulfil; and therefore, to a lesser extent than torture, ends up being essentially vengeful.

It's hard to say whether torture or capital punishment is inherently worse, because (in our justice system and elsewhere) we tend to view taking another person's life the most grievous crime of all. But when capital punishment (in the US, at any rate) is in theory conducted as painlessly as possible, whereas torture is about inflicting the maximum amount of suffering, the two are kind of operating in different realms. Perhaps, as you say, torture is ultimately less defensible as any kind of a functional necessity but that didn't stop it from being employed at Guantanamo Bay as an information-gathering method.

stui magpie wrote:
I generally agree with what Mugwump said, but I'll add a few points.

firstly I'd argue the definition "what you've done" is too narrow. broaden that to how you behave and even what you can add to society as these all contribute to your worth to society.

In your argument about murdering John the baptist vs a gangland killer, I dare say the mitigating factors would take into account a whole lot of things, but like your favourite trolley car example, if you could pull a lever and save one or the other from death, who are you more likely to choose?

In regard to your last point, human life may not have a greater purpose, but each individual makes their own way and are judged and valued by others accordingly.

Who has the greater worth? The mother who does her best to raise her children or the father who comes home drunk every night and beats the mother and children?

If you were starting a new colony, choosing a housemate or picking a sporting team, would you just select first come first served as everyone has equal value or would you choose based on what value or worth they could add?


I'd decide based on merit and compatibility, of course, but that's no reflection on their worth as human beings. When I was interviewing people for a position at the video store I managed, I didn't think for a second that the candidates I was rejecting were worthless human beings or inferior; they simply appeared to lack the precise skills and experience I was looking for. Likewise, the fact that I choose to be in a relationship with one person and not another is not because I think they're in any sense a 'better' person; I just know that I happen to see them as more suited to be with me. I'd be surprised if many people didn't think this way; most have a pretty basic conception of the difference of someone being good for this or that role and being a 'good person' (the only difference is that I reject the latter concept altogether).

As for your other points, I take the (you might say) Christian view that, no, the devoted mother is not inherently worth more than the abusive father. In Christian doctrine, both are sinners but both are also God's children and equally worthy of salvation. To put that in a secular humanist context, the end goal becomes not what might become of their eternal soul, but a respect for their existence here and now, in all its complexity.

The most damning thing about dehumanisation, whether it's of criminals or of people of different races, cultures or whatever, is that it's ultimately a false representation of reality. People who advocate for criminals to be tortured or terrorists to be blown up are nearly always treating those people as mere abstract concepts practically nobody ever stops to ask themselves "does Julian Knight miss his family?" or "is Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi feeling miserable right now?" or "what are Rolf Harris's most cherished childhood memories?" or "what does Tony Abbott dream about?". We already lack insight into the interiority of the people we're close to, let alone our acquaintances, let alone the abstract figures we read about in the newspapers. But of course all of those people do feel as much as we do, and do experience life in all its sophistication, and if we really fully understood that walked a mile in their shoes, as the saying goes we would no longer be able to feel superior to them. And we would have to concede that our life is not worth more than theirs.

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Pies4shaw 

"Phil had more talent in his little finger than both Abletts combined displayed in their entire careers"


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 01, 2017 7:10 am
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Does Julian Knight miss his family?

Not with the New Hoke Long Range Rifle Sight.

http://www.kermitool.com/hoke_rifle_sight.html
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think positive Libra

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 01, 2017 1:41 pm
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David wrote:
What, all of us? Razz


Hehe I actually don't remember picking up my iPad last night! It was the perfect storm. The fifth anniversary of my Mums passing, and we went on a MaiTai sunset cruise! First I was having too much fun and apparently my SIL got upset because she misses Ian and all of us having a great time was a reminder that he's not coming back, and then I wasn't allowed to get a little misty eyed over my mum for the same reason according to the other half! Couldn't have ended too badly though, apparently I crawled off to bed singing 'good old Collingwood forever' at the top of my lungs! - I should add that apparently janine wasnt upset, she was having a good time too, but her feelings are what they are, and it's understandable. Cheers, I'll let you live! One more night in paradise and back to reality, please tell me spring has hit with a vengeance! It's been 30 plus everyday, even at night it's still around 25.

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Last edited by think positive on Fri Sep 01, 2017 2:25 pm; edited 1 time in total
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think positive Libra

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 01, 2017 1:41 pm
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Pies4shaw wrote:
Does Julian Knight miss his family?

Not with the New Hoke Long Range Rifle Sight.

http://www.kermitool.com/hoke_rifle_sight.html


I'll pull the trigger on that prick!

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HAL 

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 01, 2017 1:45 pm
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Really you don't think so?
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Morrigu Scorpio

Saving one animal may not change the world, but surely for that one animal the world will change forever!


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 01, 2017 4:41 pm
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think positive wrote:
One more night in paradise and back to reality, please tell me spring has hit with a vengeance! It's been 30 plus everyday, even at night it's still around 25.


Break out the credit card change your flight and book a few more nights - this for the next week in Melbourne Yukkity Yuk YUK!

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think positive Libra

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 01, 2017 4:48 pm
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Ugh, yuk, cheers! I'm very tempted actually, to say bye at the airport gate and run back out and find a beach shack over the other side of the island to chill on my own for a week! But I miss my dogs!
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ronrat 



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PostPosted: Fri Sep 01, 2017 5:36 pm
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34 degrees every day here. Was hotter yesterday. Dogs are lazing about. Got a news sofa bed delivered this morning. They like that too. Delivered and set up included for 100 dollars.
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stui magpie 

suge min pikk


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 01, 2017 6:20 pm
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think positive wrote:
Pies4shaw wrote:
Does Julian Knight miss his family?

Not with the New Hoke Long Range Rifle Sight.

http://www.kermitool.com/hoke_rifle_sight.html


I'll pull the trigger on that prick!


Don't use one of those glorified open sight contraptions, get a good scope.

http://bestgunscope.com/sniper-rifle-optics/

Choose which eye to put the bullet in at 1km away and watch it hit.

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think positive Libra

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 04, 2017 10:15 am
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David wrote:
think positive wrote:
And this guy, this guy should be like the port Arthur guy, locked in a small cell on his own forever. An hour a day of sunlight, so he knows what he's missing. No TV. Unless it's stuck on abc.


Lol! If you're going down this path, you need to learn from Orwell and Room 101. Everyone's worst nightmare is different. For me, it'd be Channel 9 on full blast. Or one of the American 'entertainment' channels on Foxtel.

On the other hand, I'd willingly commit crimes to get some good ABC reception.


so watched the last episode of El Chappo season 1 last night, and really got me thinking. of course you have to factor in bias - they make him almost likable at times, and then show his brutal upbringing at the hands of a ^&*^*% father - and i cant help thinking just let him out to avenge the killing of his mates missus and kids - but back to my main point!

Hes in a jail and the punishment is similar to what i described. And seeing his and another prisoners reactions to it, im not sure too many people actually deserve it, think id rather take a bullet myself! but then i just googled it and some of the inmates there - geezus, scary!!

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