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The key to our success in 2018

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Pies4shaw 

"Phil had more talent in his little finger than both Abletts combined displayed in their entire careers"


Joined: 08 Oct 2007


PostPosted: Fri Dec 01, 2017 7:03 am
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714 hitouts in 20 games in 2017 and probably between 2 and 4 years away from playing at his full potential. My guess is that Grundy might be allowed to continue to play as our ruckman.
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MatthewBoydFanClub 



Joined: 12 Feb 2007
Location: Elwood

PostPosted: Fri Dec 01, 2017 7:35 am
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Totally against Grundy ruck roving to Cox in the centre square. The two will only get in the way of each other. Grundy has the engine to ruck 90% of game time. Buckley likes to play two ruckmen so fair enough, but we could get away with a Richmond and play Grundy as the sole ruckman and use Crisp to take the taps when Grundy is resting. Cox could therefore be used as our sole tall forward and we could build a forward line of mediums (De Goey and Stephenson) and smalls (Kirby, Daicos, Elliot and Fasolo) around Cox. Play Reid as a swing man between CHB and CHF depending on his availability and play Moore on the wing.

The game moves on so we need to be creative in the way we structure the team if we're going to go forward and put ourselves in the position to contest finals. The trouble with people is assuming everything is static and nothing changes, so our best 22 in 2018 was our best 22 in 2017 and Cox was slow and lumbering in 2017 so he won't be any good in 2018. It all starts in the preseason and depending how hard and dedicated players train in this preseason, will determine which players break through for games in 2018 and what game plan instilled by the coaching staff for 2018 will suit the players who present themselves in our best 22 for 2018. That will determine if the team is going anywhere in 2018 and has little to do with how individuals see themselves in the team.
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Magpietothemax 



Joined: 27 Apr 2013


PostPosted: Sat Dec 02, 2017 8:38 pm
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BucksIsFutureCoach wrote:
Totally against Grundy ruck roving to Cox in the centre square. The two will only get in the way of each other. Grundy has the engine to ruck 90% of game time. Buckley likes to play two ruckmen so fair enough, but we could get away with a Richmond and play Grundy as the sole ruckman and use Crisp to take the taps when Grundy is resting. Cox could therefore be used as our sole tall forward and we could build a forward line of mediums (De Goey and Stephenson) and smalls (Kirby, Daicos, Elliot and Fasolo) around Cox. Play Reid as a swing man between CHB and CHF depending on his availability and play Moore on the wing.

The game moves on so we need to be creative in the way we structure the team if we're going to go forward and put ourselves in the position to contest finals. The trouble with people is assuming everything is static and nothing changes, so our best 22 in 2018 was our best 22 in 2017 and Cox was slow and lumbering in 2017 so he won't be any good in 2018. It all starts in the preseason and depending how hard and dedicated players train in this preseason, will determine which players break through for games in 2018 and what game plan instilled by the coaching staff for 2018 will suit the players who present themselves in our best 22 for 2018. That will determine if the team is going anywhere in 2018 and has little to do with how individuals see themselves in the team.

This is a fantastic analysis. It gives a perfect summary of the modern game. Everything and anything is possible. It is not so much individual stars, but how how a star team is fashioned through the optimum combination of players. I agree that Grundy roving off Cox would be a horrible deployment. I also agree that with our current list, there are a multiplicity of possible dynamic combinations, depending almost entirely on the development of our players. Our coaches will need to have vision, and inspiration, to anticipate and bring to fruition, the potential that is there.
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Magpietothemax 



Joined: 27 Apr 2013


PostPosted: Sat Dec 02, 2017 8:38 pm
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Sorry, double post.
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E 



Joined: 05 May 2010


PostPosted: Sat Dec 02, 2017 9:38 pm
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Magpietothemax wrote:
BucksIsFutureCoach wrote:
Totally against Grundy ruck roving to Cox in the centre square. The two will only get in the way of each other. Grundy has the engine to ruck 90% of game time. Buckley likes to play two ruckmen so fair enough, but we could get away with a Richmond and play Grundy as the sole ruckman and use Crisp to take the taps when Grundy is resting. Cox could therefore be used as our sole tall forward and we could build a forward line of mediums (De Goey and Stephenson) and smalls (Kirby, Daicos, Elliot and Fasolo) around Cox. Play Reid as a swing man between CHB and CHF depending on his availability and play Moore on the wing.

The game moves on so we need to be creative in the way we structure the team if we're going to go forward and put ourselves in the position to contest finals. The trouble with people is assuming everything is static and nothing changes, so our best 22 in 2018 was our best 22 in 2017 and Cox was slow and lumbering in 2017 so he won't be any good in 2018. It all starts in the preseason and depending how hard and dedicated players train in this preseason, will determine which players break through for games in 2018 and what game plan instilled by the coaching staff for 2018 will suit the players who present themselves in our best 22 for 2018. That will determine if the team is going anywhere in 2018 and has little to do with how individuals see themselves in the team.

This is a fantastic analysis. It gives a perfect summary of the modern game. Everything and anything is possible. It is not so much individual stars, but how how a star team is fashioned through the optimum combination of players. I agree that Grundy roving off Cox would be a horrible deployment. I also agree that with our current list, there are a multiplicity of possible dynamic combinations, depending almost entirely on the development of our players. Our coaches will need to have vision, and inspiration, to anticipate and bring to fruition, the potential that is there.


everything and anything is possible ..... except adopting a highly successful strategy of having 2 bigs in the center square at the same time ...... Grundy is a dominant ruck everywhere EXCEPT in the center square against the very tall ruckman.

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Magpietothemax 



Joined: 27 Apr 2013


PostPosted: Sat Dec 02, 2017 10:33 pm
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E wrote:

everything and anything is possible ..... except adopting a highly successful strategy of having 2 bigs in the center square at the same time ...... Grundy is a dominant ruck everywhere EXCEPT in the center square against the very tall ruckman.

Yep, I stand corrected. Anything and everything is possible, and who am I to say so imperiously that Grundy and Cox in the centre square could not work under no circumstances? That is yet another permutation. Our coaches have a massive task this preseason to unravel the real possibilities from the fantastical.
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RudeBoy 



Joined: 28 Nov 2005


PostPosted: Mon Dec 11, 2017 1:57 pm
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Clearly, Grundy is, and will remain, our main ruckman. However, as his over head marking continues to improve, he demonstrated, even late this season, that he can become a powerful weapon as a resting forward. As all the training reports, especially the valuable insights from Warburton Lad, suggest that Mason Cox is continuing to improve, both physically and in terms of skills/smarts, I firmly believe that these two behemoths are on the cusp of dominating the competition. If this eventuates, there is no ceiling on what our team can achieve in 2018. The sky is the limit. Go Pies!
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Pies4shaw 

"Phil had more talent in his little finger than both Abletts combined displayed in their entire careers"


Joined: 08 Oct 2007


PostPosted: Wed Dec 13, 2017 6:42 am
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It's good that Cox is improving. He may soon be able to offer as much as marking target as, say, Gault did up forward.

Grundy is on the cusp of dominating the competition because his stats say he is already doing so. Cox is on the cusp of playing 4 games in a row.

We all want the team to improve but I don't see much merit in expecting that a guy who has played 1 game in every three over the last two seasons is going to be the difference - it goes beyond supporting the Club and well into the realms of common or garden delusion to be anticipating great things from a forward-line that, if the media is to be believed, may boast a fading formerly great CHB and a ruckman who can't get to play ruck because we have a much better one as its twin towers.

Remember two seasons ago when people were saying things to the effect that "we don't need Cloke because Moore is about to become one of the premier forwards of the competition"? Now, apparently, Moore is to be sent to backline and we are looking at about Plan F (Dawes, Lynch, White, Cloke, Moore) for the forward-line. The uncomfortable reality is that we had a fully-functional forward line until about 2013. It has been on the slide since 2011. That year, we had a goal difference of 159. Last season, we had a goal difference of -9. Our forward line is kicking fewer goals and our defence is letting more be kicked against us - have a look at the season by season summaries - they make for grim reading: https://afltables.com/afl/teams/collingwood/season.html

Thus, we are, according to the stats, an 8-goal-per-game worse team than we were when we last played in a Grand Final. That is not going to be turned around by fielding a team of makeshift forwards and Elliott.
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BazBoy 



Joined: 11 Sep 2014


PostPosted: Wed Dec 13, 2017 7:25 am
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Some good points definitely on our forward line reliance on small forwards
if Mason/Brody plan goes bad

But havenít looked to see if an added key tall forward took Tigers from 13 to the flag which is where we are attempting to get

Anyone know because if not the any team can make that leap

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Magpietothemax 



Joined: 27 Apr 2013


PostPosted: Wed Dec 13, 2017 4:31 pm
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Pies4shaw wrote:
It's good that Cox is improving. He may soon be able to offer as much as marking target as, say, Gault did up forward.
Cox is on the cusp of playing 4 games in a row.

We all want the team to improve but I don't see much merit in expecting that a guy who has played 1 game in every three over the last two seasons is going to be the difference - it goes beyond supporting the Club and well into the realms of common or garden delusion to be anticipating great things from a forward-line that, if the media is to be believed, may boast a fading formerly great CHB and a ruckman who can't get to play ruck because we have a much better one as its twin towers.


Thus, we are, according to the stats, an 8-goal-per-game worse team than we were when we last played in a Grand Final. That is not going to be turned around by fielding a team of makeshift forwards and Elliott.

A pretty pessimistic assessment of Cox. I thought that last year he showed plenty of potential for next year both in the ruck and in the development of his marking ability. The danger he poses to the opposition defence in that regard is already signficantly beyond Gault's.
While I don't think that that Mason Cox in and of himself will make the difference, it is far more to do with what combinations can be achieved in our forward line. Based on the evidence, I think we can assume that Mason Cox has alot of upside which we can expect next year. Then, further improvement can come from the natural development of players such as Kirby, Daicos, Brown, Crocker, De Goey, Maynard, .... I am hoping for a difference next year, and think that such hopes are justified, not by basing everything on Mason Cox, but on Mason Cox plus the continued improvement of our talented young players.
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Podpicken Cancer



Joined: 28 Oct 2006


PostPosted: Wed Dec 13, 2017 4:58 pm
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30-40 goals a year from big Coxy with a role of swapping in the ruck and we've had a big win. He can only improve, that's the exciting thing.
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Pies4shaw 

"Phil had more talent in his little finger than both Abletts combined displayed in their entire careers"


Joined: 08 Oct 2007


PostPosted: Wed Dec 13, 2017 6:51 pm
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Magpietothemax wrote:
Pies4shaw wrote:
It's good that Cox is improving. He may soon be able to offer as much as marking target as, say, Gault did up forward.
Cox is on the cusp of playing 4 games in a row.

We all want the team to improve but I don't see much merit in expecting that a guy who has played 1 game in every three over the last two seasons is going to be the difference - it goes beyond supporting the Club and well into the realms of common or garden delusion to be anticipating great things from a forward-line that, if the media is to be believed, may boast a fading formerly great CHB and a ruckman who can't get to play ruck because we have a much better one as its twin towers.


Thus, we are, according to the stats, an 8-goal-per-game worse team than we were when we last played in a Grand Final. That is not going to be turned around by fielding a team of makeshift forwards and Elliott.

A pretty pessimistic assessment of Cox. I thought that last year he showed plenty of potential for next year both in the ruck and in the development of his marking ability. The danger he poses to the opposition defence in that regard is already signficantly beyond Gault's.
While I don't think that that Mason Cox in and of himself will make the difference, it is far more to do with what combinations can be achieved in our forward line. Based on the evidence, I think we can assume that Mason Cox has alot of upside which we can expect next year. Then, further improvement can come from the natural development of players such as Kirby, Daicos, Brown, Crocker, De Goey, Maynard, .... I am hoping for a difference next year, and think that such hopes are justified, not by basing everything on Mason Cox, but on Mason Cox plus the continued improvement of our talented young players.

The reference to Gault was poetic licence. I hope Cox improves but he comes off a reasonably low base. In 2017, he played 9 games and kicked 10 goals. Thatís not heaps to build a forward line around, especially if Moore is going to be our CHB.
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BazBoy 



Joined: 11 Sep 2014


PostPosted: Wed Dec 13, 2017 7:30 pm
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Coxy if he keeps improving should be a weapon but hell boys give him the chance to produce goals

And one way is to move the ball quickly to him so his height works for marks

I would want to build a slick feed to the forwards to offset the lack of key
talls

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Magpietothemax 



Joined: 27 Apr 2013


PostPosted: Wed Dec 13, 2017 8:03 pm
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BazBoy wrote:
Coxy if he keeps improving should be a weapon but hell boys give him the chance to produce goals

And one way is to move the ball quickly to him so his height works for marks

I would want to build a slick feed to the forwards to offset the lack of key
talls

absolutely correct. That is why the continued development of our young armada of small forwards is crucial, as well as the improvement of our delivery into F50. If we somehow find a way to improve radically our delivery into F50, this in itself would be a gateway to Top 8. The ability to apply intense forward pressure as well would be Top 4. Not sure that we can do that yet with our young guys, but I am hoping for Top 8.
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WhyPhilWhy? 



Joined: 09 Oct 2001
Location: Location: Location:

PostPosted: Thu Dec 14, 2017 7:22 am
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The fact that other clubs were sniffing around Mason shows we aren't the only ones to think he has real first team potential.
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