Nick's Collingwood Bulletin Board Forum Index
 The RulesThe Rules FAQFAQ
   MemberlistMemberlist   UsergroupsUsergroups   CalendarCalendar   SearchSearch 
Log inLog in RegisterRegister
 
Transgender politics and social issues

Users browsing this topic:0 Registered, 0 Hidden and 0 Guests
Registered Users: None

Post new topic   Reply to topic    Nick's Collingwood Bulletin Board Forum Index -> Victoria Park Tavern
 
Goto page 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6  Next
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
watt price tully Scorpio



Joined: 15 May 2007


PostPosted: Wed Sep 20, 2017 10:09 am
Post subject: Transgender politics and social issuesReply with quote

<Moderator note: This has been split off from the "transgender athletes" thread, which was becoming a bit of a catch-all for any and all issues related to transgender people. Please keep posts in that thread to sport-oriented issues and use this one for other discussions relating to transgender identity and related topics.>

I'm not too sure how I feel about the issue of transgendered athletes.

I deal regularly in my work with troubled transgendered people.

I really have to be conscious of language lest I offend someone. The words "they & them" are used instead of personal pronouns. One day I was feeling particularly proud of myself as I had spent considerable time assisting a couple one of who was a trangendered person. I stuck to the use of non personal pronouns religiously throughout. However, I almost undid all the good work when right at the end I said and I'll take him to the.....when adressing the partner Very Happy Embarassed They laughed!!

There's still something NQR about it in my mind (transgendered athletes) especially with reference to being an athlete of one gender on minute then an athelete for a different gender the next. If I was a woman not via transgender and an aspiring athlete I would by mighty pissed off if my opportunuty was taken as TP was indicating earlier.

Germaine Greer once said basically that lopping off your penis does not in itself (axiomatically) make you a woman. I don't necessarily agree or disgree (ouch the fence) but understand her reasoning for this viewpoint.
I know David in particular is a fan of both Germaine Greer & Sheilagh Jefferies when it comes to Transgender issues Razz

But by golly bi jingo by jeeves did she cop it to a histrionic extent by the pro- tran lobby (not the vietnamese either)

".....(Greer) has tried to defend her trans views before, telling Newsnight last year: “Apparently people have decided that because I don’t think that post-operative transgender men are women, I’m not to be allowed to talk. I’m not saying that people should not be allowed to go through that procedure, what I’m saying is it doesn’t make them a woman.....”

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/women/life/germaine-greer-defends-her-transgender-views-and-starts-another/

Strange bedfellows: Pa Marmo & Germiane Greer Wink who'd a thunk

_________________
Attorney: Chicolini, when were you born? Chicolini: I don't remember. I was just a little baby. (Chico Marx in Duck Soup)
Back to top  
View user's profile Send private message  
David Libra

Rose with a violent heart


Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: où surréal côtoie

PostPosted: Wed Sep 20, 2017 10:21 am
Post subject: Reply with quote

I think Greer's views on the matter are generally seen as terribly outdated now, and even those who defended her right to free speech (as I did) tended to see them as offensive and misguided. Of course you're entitled to agree with her (or sit on the fence Wink) but to my mind she seems to take an unnecessarily fundamentalist approach to deciding what a 'real' woman is, particularly given the core feminist view (to which she surely at least somewhat subscribes) that gender is constructed.

Anyway, perhaps even she wouldn't oppose trans women being allowed to play the sport of their choice. Ultimately it's all about inclusion vs exclusion I think.

_________________
"O rire sous le couteau
Roses au cœur violet"
Back to top  
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail MSN Messenger  
thesoretoothsayer 



Joined: 26 Apr 2017


PostPosted: Wed Sep 20, 2017 10:39 am
Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I deal regularly in my work with troubled transgendered people.

Sounds like a tough gig.

I can think of few things more emotionally or mentally challenging than to conclude that you're trapped in the wrong body.
It must be hell both for the individual concerned and those close to them.
Back to top  
View user's profile Send private message  
watt price tully Scorpio



Joined: 15 May 2007


PostPosted: Wed Sep 20, 2017 11:12 am
Post subject: Reply with quote

thesoretoothsayer wrote:
Quote:
I deal regularly in my work with troubled transgendered people.

Sounds like a tough gig.

I can think of few things more emotionally or mentally challenging than to conclude that you're trapped in the wrong body.
It must be hell both for the individual concerned and those close to them.


I don't deal with their trangender issues. I merely assess mental state & risk and determine disposition: what next for the person being assessed?:

1. home no assistance,
2. home GP,
3. home usual supports,
4. home private psychologist etc,
5. home and crisis mental health,
6. admit voluntarly
7. admit as a "compulsory person" that is against their will.
7. admit medical if medical issues that warrant an admission then refer to general medical mental health otherwise known as "consultation liaison mental health"

after that I get on with the next assessment. So no big isues so to speak regarding transgender.

_________________
Attorney: Chicolini, when were you born? Chicolini: I don't remember. I was just a little baby. (Chico Marx in Duck Soup)
Back to top  
View user's profile Send private message  
David Libra

Rose with a violent heart


Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: où surréal côtoie

PostPosted: Wed Sep 20, 2017 3:18 pm
Post subject: Reply with quote

thesoretoothsayer wrote:
Quote:
I deal regularly in my work with troubled transgendered people.

Sounds like a tough gig.

I can think of few things more emotionally or mentally challenging than to conclude that you're trapped in the wrong body.
It must be hell both for the individual concerned and those close to them.


On the contrary, my personal experience of interacting with the half-dozen or so transgender people I've known (who have made the transition) has been anything but 'hell'. They're just people – indeed, some seem to have their shit together far more than most of the non-trans people I know.

That's not to diminish the psychological challenges involved, particularly early in life. But this is where stuff like inclusion and acceptance are so important: most of the negative mental health consequences can probably be traced directly back to stigma and lack of acceptance from family, friends and society as a whole. It doesn't have to be that way.

_________________
"O rire sous le couteau
Roses au cœur violet"
Back to top  
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail MSN Messenger  
stui magpie 

Oh the Premiership's a cakewalk


Joined: 03 May 2005
Location: preparing the Pilosocereus suppository

PostPosted: Wed Sep 20, 2017 7:10 pm
Post subject: Reply with quote

David wrote:
thesoretoothsayer wrote:
Quote:
I deal regularly in my work with troubled transgendered people.

Sounds like a tough gig.

I can think of few things more emotionally or mentally challenging than to conclude that you're trapped in the wrong body.
It must be hell both for the individual concerned and those close to them.


On the contrary, my personal experience of interacting with the half-dozen or so transgender people I've known (who have made the transition) has been anything but 'hell'. They're just people – indeed, some seem to have their shit together far more than most of the non-trans people I know.



That may say a lot about your circle of friends. Razz

_________________
Arguing with an idiot is like playing chess with a pigeon. No matter how good you are, the bird is going to knock over the pieces, shit on the board and strut around like it won anyway.
Back to top  
View user's profile Send private message  
stui magpie 

Oh the Premiership's a cakewalk


Joined: 03 May 2005
Location: preparing the Pilosocereus suppository

PostPosted: Wed Sep 20, 2017 7:39 pm
Post subject: Reply with quote

watt price tully wrote:
I'm not too sure how I feel about the issue of transgendered athletes.

I deal regularly in my work with troubled transgendered people.

I really have to be conscious of language lest I offend someone. The words "they & them" are used instead of personal pronouns. One day I was feeling particularly proud of myself as I had spent considerable time assisting a couple one of who was a trangendered person. I stuck to the use of non personal pronouns religiously throughout. However, I almost undid all the good work when right at the end I said and I'll take him to the.....when adressing the partner Very Happy Embarassed They laughed!!

There's still something NQR about it in my mind (transgendered athletes) especially with reference to being an athlete of one gender on minute then an athelete for a different gender the next. If I was a woman not via transgender and an aspiring athlete I would by mighty pissed off if my opportunuty was taken as TP was indicating earlier.

Germaine Greer once said basically that lopping off your penis does not in itself (axiomatically) make you a woman. I don't necessarily agree or disgree (ouch the fence) but understand her reasoning for this viewpoint.
I know David in particular is a fan of both Germaine Greer & Sheilagh Jefferies when it comes to Transgender issues Razz

But by golly bi jingo by jeeves did she cop it to a histrionic extent by the pro- tran lobby (not the vietnamese either)

".....(Greer) has tried to defend her trans views before, telling Newsnight last year: “Apparently people have decided that because I don’t think that post-operative transgender men are women, I’m not to be allowed to talk. I’m not saying that people should not be allowed to go through that procedure, what I’m saying is it doesn’t make them a woman.....”

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/women/life/germaine-greer-defends-her-transgender-views-and-starts-another/

Strange bedfellows: Pa Marmo & Germiane Greer Wink who'd a thunk


Thanks for proving you don't have to be transphobic to have concerns. Wink

_________________
Arguing with an idiot is like playing chess with a pigeon. No matter how good you are, the bird is going to knock over the pieces, shit on the board and strut around like it won anyway.
Back to top  
View user's profile Send private message  
thesoretoothsayer 



Joined: 26 Apr 2017


PostPosted: Wed Oct 24, 2018 2:29 pm
Post subject: Reply with quote

David wrote:
Even if trans female athletes wanted to compete in men's competitions (and it's obvious why they wouldn't want to, as it would be a complete negation of their identity), it's not clear that they would be permitted to under the rules of the sport, given that they are legally female. And, in any case, that would only satisfy the 'fairness' brigade half of the time: we've already seen complaints in this thread about trans male athletes (on hormone replacement therapy) competing in female competition. As I said, some people won't be happy until transgender people retreat to a ghetto and/or disappear from public life altogether. Thankfully, sporting code administrators tend to be a little more forward-thinking.


So I assume you support an offender who identifies as a woman being sent to a woman's prison?
Back to top  
View user's profile Send private message  
David Libra

Rose with a violent heart


Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: où surréal côtoie

PostPosted: Wed Oct 24, 2018 4:55 pm
Post subject: Reply with quote

think positive wrote:
David wrote:
Even if trans female athletes wanted to compete in men's competitions (and it's obvious why they wouldn't want to, as it would be a complete negation of their identity), it's not clear that they would be permitted to under the rules of the sport, given that they are legally female. And, in any case, that would only satisfy the 'fairness' brigade half of the time: we've already seen complaints in this thread about trans male athletes (on hormone replacement therapy) competing in female competition. As I said, some people won't be happy until transgender people retreat to a ghetto and/or disappear from public life altogether. Thankfully, sporting code administrators tend to be a little more forward-thinking.

thats bullshit David, no one is saying that, not one person has said anything derogatory here.


Whether or not anyone here openly thinks that, it is the logical conclusion of their arguments – effectively, pushing transgender sportspeople into a convenient corner where they don't have to bother anyone with their presence. Otherwise, I think this is a general view that many people hold, yes.

thesoretoothsayer wrote:
So I assume you support an offender who identifies as a woman being sent to a woman's prison?


Yes, that seems reasonable. And I guess you're itching to tell me why I shouldn't...

_________________
"O rire sous le couteau
Roses au cœur violet"
Back to top  
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail MSN Messenger  
Bucks5 Capricorn

The Swoop Squad


Joined: 23 Mar 2002


PostPosted: Wed Oct 24, 2018 5:45 pm
Post subject: Reply with quote

Maybe I will throw this into the mix.....

https://nypost.com/2018/07/30/man-legally-changes-gender-to-get-cheaper-car-insurance-report/

_________________
How would Siri know when to answer "Hey Siri" unless it is listening in to everything you say?
Back to top  
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website  
HAL 

Please don't shout at me - I can't help it.


Joined: 17 Mar 2003


PostPosted: Wed Oct 24, 2018 5:49 pm
Post subject: Reply with quote

Do you think your plan will succeed?
Back to top  
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website  
ronrat 



Joined: 22 May 2006
Location: Thailand

PostPosted: Wed Oct 24, 2018 6:43 pm
Post subject: Reply with quote

thesoretoothsayer wrote:
So I assume you support an offender who identifies as a woman being sent to a woman's prison?

This is a big issue in Thailand ,Alot of the transexexuals end up in the bar game and get on drugs and rob tourists. When they get caught they are sent to a male prison andshare a cell with up to 20 others with no privacy, Tv, internet . You need not guess what goes for entertainment. They are only know looking st segregating them because prison rape seems to fall under "You do the crime you do the crime". The latest is they will ban cigarettes in Jails as well. Could well be riots.

_________________
Annoying opposition supporters since 1967.
Back to top  
View user's profile Send private message  
David Libra

Rose with a violent heart


Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: où surréal côtoie

PostPosted: Wed Oct 24, 2018 8:00 pm
Post subject: Reply with quote

thesoretoothsayer wrote:
No. Just trying to establish to what extent you privilege trans ideology over woman's rights.
What if the offender who identifies as a woman still has dangly bits and has past rape (of women) convictions?


As nearly any contemporary feminist will tell you, trans women’s rights are an important subset of women’s rights. And so there are quite legitimate concerns that, as RR colourfully describes above, transgender women will themselves be at risk in male prisons.

The question of whether a trans female rapist should be in a women’s prison is a classic wedge issue – one that would be so rare as to easily be dealt with on a case-by-case basis, but one that a lot of hay can nonetheless be made out of by bigoted scaremongers (as it has been by right-wing radical feminist groups in the UK). I’ve read news reports from Britain in which this very issue has been discussed, and the suggestion from transgender lobbying groups has been that such cases should be assessed carefully by prison authorities and that particularly dangerous individuals should, as an exception, not be permitted into women’s prisons.

Personally, rather than focusing on that sensational and rare issue, I’d rather address and resolve broader issues of abuse in prison and how violent individuals are allowed to terrorise fellow inmates, male or female; there’s no reason why our trans female rapist can’t be treated the same as a garden variety same-sex rapist in a male prison (whether that be solitary confinement, 24/7 guards or whatever). Basically, rather than concocting prurient horror stories about female impersonators in women’s prisons, I’d rather look at better functional protections for inmates in general. And ultimately, I don’t consider male prison rape (which none of the people raising this issue seem to give a shit about) a lower priority here. We need to throw out the special pleading and actually deal with these issues seriously.

_________________
"O rire sous le couteau
Roses au cœur violet"


Last edited by David on Wed Oct 24, 2018 8:11 pm; edited 4 times in total
Back to top  
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail MSN Messenger  
thesoretoothsayer 



Joined: 26 Apr 2017


PostPosted: Thu Oct 25, 2018 7:57 am
Post subject: Reply with quote

A couple of quick points.

Quote:
right-wing radical feminist groups..

"right-wing" actually means something. Same as "nazi" and "fascist". They don't just mean someone I disagree with. Calling a radical lesbian feminist right-wing is quite a leap.

Quote:
As nearly any contemporary feminist will tell you...

Incorrect. It seems a growing number of feminists are speaking up against trans ideology. Are you excluding their voices? Does their truth mean nothing to you?
https://www.feministcurrent.com/2017/04/22/oppression-olympics-women-always-lose/

Quote:
I’ve read news reports from Britain in which this very issue has been discussed, and the suggestion from transgender lobbying groups has been that such cases should be assessed carefully by prison authorities and that particularly dangerous individuals should, as an exception, not be permitted into women’s prisons.
But why would you exclude someone who identifies as a women from women's prison under any circumstances? Doesn't that tacitly state that they are not in fact "proper" women? Isn't that transphobic?
Back to top  
View user's profile Send private message  
Tannin 

Can't remember


Joined: 06 Aug 2006
Location: Ballarat

PostPosted: Thu Oct 25, 2018 8:54 am
Post subject: Reply with quote

thesoretoothsayer wrote:
Quote:
right-wing radical feminist groups..

"right-wing" actually means something. Same as "nazi" and "fascist". They don't just mean someone I disagree with. Calling a radical lesbian feminist right-wing is quite a leap.


"Nazi" and "fascist" do not mean the same thing, though they are fairly similar. A pretty reasonable first approximation would be to say that all Nazis are fascists, but not all fascists are Nazis. All fascists (and thus all Nazis) are right-wing, but not all right-wingers are fascists.

There is a second distinction, albeit an imprecise one. While both fascists and Nazis are extreme right wingers, fascists tend to come from within, often high up within, society's most conservative institutions (churches, banks, aristocratic families, army and navy, law and law enforcement), while Nazis tend to come from outside the leadership of those institutions, or from subordinate positions within them, and often want to tear the institutions down and rebuild them into a new image.

Think of the difference between Vice-President Mike Pence (a fascist type) and Donald Trump (essentially a Nazi).

A Fascist (capital "F") is a member of Italy's ruling party of the 1930s. A fascist (lower-case "f") could be a Fascist (albeit a very old one now), but is more likely a member of, supporter of, or fellow traveller with any of the many ultra-right-wing parties around the world. (Is it possible to be ultra-right-wing and not a fascist? Probably yes, but I'd have to think about that.)

Probably we should have a term "nazi" (lower-case "n") to denote Nazi-like people who don't live in Hitler's Germany-Austria byt my spell-checker at least doesn't recognise the term uncapitalised. Let's use it anyway.

I cannot think of any feminist nazis or fascists, not off the top of my head, but there is no logical reason you couldn't have such a thing. OK, real feminism is about fairness and equality, both foreign concepts to fascism and nazism, but modern third wave feminism has morphed into an ideology of inequality and revenge (classic Nazi themes), so the parallel is there. Indeed, anti-egalitarian Nazism emerged out of the by-definition egalitarian communist movement, so there is a second parallel.

Here in Australia, if you want to be accurate to type, you shouldn't call the likes of Tony Abbott and Eric Abetz and Senator Bestiality "nazis" as they are strong supporters of conservative memes and institutions and tend to be only accidental racists; "fascists" is a better-suited term. For nazi-like Australians, look to the likes of Dutton and Hanson.

_________________
‘Let's eat Grandma.’ Commas save lives!
Back to top  
View user's profile Send private message  
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Nick's Collingwood Bulletin Board Forum Index -> Victoria Park Tavern All times are GMT + 11 Hours

Goto page 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6  Next
Page 1 of 6   

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You cannot download files in this forum



Privacy Policy

Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group