Saudi Arabia
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stui magpie 
Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.
Joined: 03 May 2005
Location: In flagrante delicto
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First door on the left, one cross each.
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Every dead body on Mt Everest was once a highly motivated person, so maybe just calm the **** down. |
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pietillidie
Joined: 07 Jan 2005
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Cough *Amerindians* cough *slavery* cough *Mexico* cough *Hawaii* cough *Puerto Rico* cough *The Philippines* cough *Panama* cough *Haiti* cough *The Dominican Republic* cough *Syria v1.0* cough *Indonesia* cough *Laos* cough *Franco* cough *Iran v1.0* cough *Iraq v1.0* cough *Bolivia* cough *Vietnam* cough *Guyana* cough * Paraguay* cough *Ecuador* cough *El Salvador* cough *Nicaragua* cough *Guatemala* cough * East Timor v1.0* cough *Colombia* cough *Iraq sanctions* cough *Afghanistan* cough *Iraq* cough *drones* cough *arms sales* cough....
It takes incredible effort to navigate all of those fine planetary contributions in any technical way and still feel all warm. The simplest way to feel good about the US as a state is to memorise the following historical cognitive parameters:
Enlightenment > virginal pilgrims > revolutionary war > constitution > WW2 > Berlin Wall > Sep 11
Doesn't that give everyone a glow of pride and contentment rounded off with a sympathy which invites a steely new commitment?
Once again: Nations are convenient cognitive placeholders, not moral agents. They get at something else too tedious to describe in everyday conversation. We can't make serious, straight-faced claims such as "the US has been an overwhelming force for good" without running extraordinarily complex calculations, if at all.
It would be far more honest to concede that what we really mean is "the US as I model it in my mind's eye seems overwhelmingly beneficial for me and my welfare and happiness and that makes me feel good". This way, at least we're admitting that we're not conducting a serious analysis, but rather we're being completely emotional and solipsistic, and we hope like hell it's true because it feels good to us as a working assumption.
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In the end the rain comes down, washes clean the streets of a blue sky town.
Help Nick's: http://www.magpies.net/nick/bb/fundraising.htm |
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Jezza 
2023 PREMIERS!
Joined: 06 Sep 2010
Location: Ponsford End
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Thanks for linking the article PTID! Very interesting read.
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think positive 
Side By Side
Joined: 30 Jun 2005
Location: somewhere
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So is it possible just to look at current times, or are the nazis the only ones who get to put it all in the past? How about the English coming in and killing all the aborigines? And then There is what we did to the scots (who can forget Hawaiian born mel Gibson as he is being hung drawn and quartered, FREEDOM!) and then there's the Irish! Lucky Aussies sit back and think they can pass judgement, of course you can, all the real Aussies got slaughtered, had their children stolen, and got booed on the footy field! Your just the next generation, innocent babes in arms!
September 11 really! Your going to blame that on the yanks! How $£$%^%%$ dare you.
I'll tell you what when push comes to shove, I know who I want on my side.
God bless America. They will save you, even when you don't $£$%^%%$ deserve it.
Let he who is free of sin cast thy stone.
But hey well done, turn it into another USA hate thread!
Gotta keep those tall Poppy's down boys, well done.
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You cant fix stupid, turns out you cant quarantine it either! |
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pietillidie
Joined: 07 Jan 2005
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| think positive wrote: | | \September 11 really! Your going to blame that on the yanks! How $£$%^%%$ dare you. |
Oi, read that bit again! You're confusing that cognitive map with the list of dubious interventions above it! The cognitive map is an example list of historical markers which make people feel good and/or elicit sympathy!  You owe me a beer, which I then have to forward to Mugwump for erroneously claiming he supported the Iraq War! 
_________________
In the end the rain comes down, washes clean the streets of a blue sky town.
Help Nick's: http://www.magpies.net/nick/bb/fundraising.htm |
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Mugwump
Joined: 28 Jul 2007
Location: Between London and Melbourne
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| think positive wrote: | So is it possible just to look at current times, or are the nazis the only ones who get to put it all in the past? How about the English coming in and killing all the aborigines? And then There is what we did to the scots (who can forget Hawaiian born mel Gibson as he is being hung drawn and quartered, FREEDOM!) and then there's the Irish! Lucky Aussies sit back and think they can pass judgement, of course you can, all the real Aussies got slaughtered, had their children stolen, and got booed on the footy field! Your just the next generation, innocent babes in arms!
September 11 really! Your going to blame that on the yanks! How $£$%^%%$ dare you.
I'll tell you what when push comes to shove, I know who I want on my side.
God bless America. They will save you, even when you don't $£$%^%%$ deserve it.
Let he who is free of sin cast thy stone.
But hey well done, turn it into another USA hate thread!
Gotta keep those tall Poppy's down boys, well done. |
Indeed, TP. One thing I'll never understand about the "intellectual Left" is their ability to live under the benevolent protection of the democracies, free to say what they think without fear of persecution or oppression, and then shamelessly spend their entire time trying to destroy, deny and denigrate them. The old Left, for which I still have great sympathy, was born of altruism and personal interest. It wanted a better economic deal for those at the bottom of the heap, and the right to rise within it - a very worthy and honourable ambition.
My hypothesis is that many of the New Left - being children of the narcissistic, self-seeking sixties - can only prove themselves superior to the system that bred them by damning it and undermining it. With most of their basic material wants and security satisfied by the society they are lucky enough to inhabit, they are consumers of the illusion of personal virtue.
Over the last 80 years we have seen Nazism, Sovietism, Theocracy, Military dictatorship - or the continuation of 200 years-plus of developing democracy, personal liberty, and constitutional law. We see which way the migrations flow.
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Two more flags before I die!
Last edited by Mugwump on Thu Oct 01, 2015 7:30 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Mugwump
Joined: 28 Jul 2007
Location: Between London and Melbourne
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| pietillidie wrote: | | think positive wrote: | | \September 11 really! Your going to blame that on the yanks! How $£$%^%%$ dare you. |
Oi, read that bit again! You're confusing that cognitive map with the list of dubious interventions above it! The cognitive map is an example list of historical markers which make people feel good and/or elicit sympathy! You owe me a beer, which I then have to forward to Mugwump for erroneously claiming he supported the Iraq War! |
Yeah, I don't think that was what PTID meant, TP. he was rightly saying that Sep 11 rightly elicits some sympathy and positive feeling for America.
PTID, I can agree with some of what you wrote above. Nations are not moral agents like people. but unlike you, perhaps, I do think that their history expresses a set of broad values, which may be more or less benign.
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Two more flags before I die! |
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David
I dare you to try
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda
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You're nothing if not predictable, Mugwump. I was simply pointing out that, really, any major power being in charge of the UN human rights commission is probably going to be worthy of a few raised eyebrows, and that America is no exception. And neither is Australia, for that matter.
Perhaps Nepal, the Netherlands and Finland ought to have it on rotation. 
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All watched over by machines of loving grace |
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Mugwump
Joined: 28 Jul 2007
Location: Between London and Melbourne
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| David wrote: | I was simply pointing out that, really, any major power being in charge of the UN human rights commission is probably going to be worthy of a few raised eyebrows, and that America is no exception. And neither is Australia, for that matter.
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Well, perhaps - but you actually wrote "having America or one of its close allies (like us) in charge wouldn't be much better" (than Saudi Arabia). That's rather different to " a raised eyebrow". As you expressed it above, however, I'm on board.
Sorry to be predictable, but it is a bit like moving the ocean with a shovel, sometimes.
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Two more flags before I die! |
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Jezza
2023 PREMIERS!
Joined: 06 Sep 2010
Location: Ponsford End
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David
I dare you to try
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda
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This is pretty depressing news, given that ending the civil war in Syria is virtually impossible without effective negotiation between Iran and Saudi Arabia. An outrageous act on the part of the Saudi government, and just a huge setback to peace in general.
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All watched over by machines of loving grace |
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Wokko 
Come and take it.
Joined: 04 Oct 2005
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| There's also the proxy war in Yemen between Saudi and Iran. |
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think positive
Side By Side
Joined: 30 Jun 2005
Location: somewhere
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| Mugwump wrote: | | think positive wrote: | So is it possible just to look at current times, or are the nazis the only ones who get to put it all in the past? How about the English coming in and killing all the aborigines? And then There is what we did to the scots (who can forget Hawaiian born mel Gibson as he is being hung drawn and quartered, FREEDOM!) and then there's the Irish! Lucky Aussies sit back and think they can pass judgement, of course you can, all the real Aussies got slaughtered, had their children stolen, and got booed on the footy field! Your just the next generation, innocent babes in arms!
September 11 really! Your going to blame that on the yanks! How $£$%^%%$ dare you.
I'll tell you what when push comes to shove, I know who I want on my side.
God bless America. They will save you, even when you don't $£$%^%%$ deserve it.
Let he who is free of sin cast thy stone.
But hey well done, turn it into another USA hate thread!
Gotta keep those tall Poppy's down boys, well done. |
Indeed, TP. One thing I'll never understand about the "intellectual Left" is their ability to live under the benevolent protection of the democracies, free to say what they think without fear of persecution or oppression, and then shamelessly spend their entire time trying to destroy, deny and denigrate them. The old Left, for which I still have great sympathy, was born of altruism and personal interest. It wanted a better economic deal for those at the bottom of the heap, and the right to rise within it - a very worthy and honourable ambition.
My hypothesis is that many of the New Left - being children of the narcissistic, self-seeking sixties - can only prove themselves superior to the system that bred them by damning it and undermining it. With most of their basic material wants and security satisfied by the society they are lucky enough to inhabit, they are consumers of the illusion of personal virtue.
Over the last 80 years we have seen Nazism, Sovietism, Theocracy, Military dictatorship - or the continuation of 200 years-plus of developing democracy, personal liberty, and constitutional law. We see which way the migrations flow. |
i missed this, great post
_________________
You cant fix stupid, turns out you cant quarantine it either! |
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David
I dare you to try
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda
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Jezza
2023 PREMIERS!
Joined: 06 Sep 2010
Location: Ponsford End
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Sunni-Shia relations are going to take a massive blow now.
Considering much of the conflicts in the Middle East are centered around this schism I can't see any peace in the region any time soon.
_________________
| 1902 | 1903 | 1910 | 1917 | 1919 | 1927 | 1928 | 1929 | 1930 | 1935 | 1936 | 1953 | 1958 | 1990 | 2010 | 2023 | |
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