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Pies4shaw
pies4shaw
Joined: 08 Oct 2007
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There was not enough talent on the list in 2011 outside the first 22. Bearing in mind that 22 included Jolly, Ball, Maxwell, Leigh Brown, Tarrant, Johnson, Krak and Davis, it seems to me obvious that, absent major list renovation, Collingwood could not be competitive more than a year or 2 into the future.
Collingwood knew that at the end of 2010, when it emptied out about 10n or 11 players and tried to recruit replacements - unfortunately, most of the replacements weren't up to it, largely because of the absence of early draft picks. Krak was taken for the attempt to go back to back, Fasolo was taken at our first pick (45) and he slotted almost straight into the senior team but the other guys were all late picks.
I'm not interested in defending the present position but I do think it's important to appreciate that our list was thin and there was virtually no back-up available after the back to back Grand Finals. I think the Club was well aware of that, too - Buckley made 6 changes for the first game of 2012 - some of them were hopeless and never played for Collingwood again - but at least we found out.
The frustrating thing for me last year and this is that the Club's strategy (get more basic talent onto the list) seemed to be correct but much of the talent either hasn't got on the park or has developed more slowly than I had hoped.
All of that said, I still think the strategy was the correct one. The implementation of that recruiting strategy and the coaching of the talent, once here, are separate questions but there was and is no doubt in my mind that Collingwood 2011 was on the edge of the abyss. |
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Museman
Joined: 06 Jul 2009
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As I said, same can be said for any list, do yourself a favour and dissect the hawthorn list for 2011 in the same manor.
Thy worked out what we didn't, still haven't apparently... continuing turnover of list for youth year in year out is a road to nowhere
Completely and utterly disagree with your abyss assessment. |
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Pies4shaw
pies4shaw
Joined: 08 Oct 2007
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I understand that you disagree but I'm not sure why (that's not meant to be a smart comment - I'm inviting you to give me a detailed explanation, so that I can understand your argument better). The comparison with Hawthorn intrigues me - apart from a couple of experienced recruits added in, wasn't virtually the entirety of their 2013 and 2014 premiership teams already on their list in 2011? |
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RudeBoy
Joined: 28 Nov 2005
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We must make a few changes to make a statement that yesterday's capitulation was unacceptable.
Ins: Cox, Witts, Karnezis, Kennedy, Brown
Outs: Grundy, Fasolo, Blair, Reid, Cloke |
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Museman
Joined: 06 Jul 2009
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Pies4shaw wrote: | I understand that you disagree but I'm not sure why (that's not meant to be a smart comment - I'm inviting you to give me a detailed explanation, so that I can understand your argument better). The comparison with Hawthorn intrigues me - apart from a couple of experienced recruits added in, wasn't virtually the entirety of their 2013 and 2014 premiership teams already on their list in 2011? |
The comparison with Hawthorn, is that you can take there 2011 top up players as you did with the list of Collingwood top ups and suggest that the majority would not prove integral to the future.......
Savage
Osborne
Morton
Ellis
ladson
Bateman
Young
Renouf
Gilham
and they are the names
Lisle
William
Milne
Sierakowski
Menagola
Shnieder
Abyss indeed.
Dids
Ball
Jolly
Brown
Maxwell
Johnson
I won't count Leon, he could still play now and be a better ball deliverer than we currently have.
You are suggesting that the above players are irreplaceable, I do not agree because I think they were, we didn't recruit well at all to replace these types and to compound we then cut because Bux couldn't man manage. |
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Dave The Man
Joined: 01 Apr 2005 Location: Someville, Victoria, Australia
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Could be a Dead Rubber for the Cats _________________ I am Da Man |
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Bob Sugar
Joined: 11 Feb 2010 Location: Benalla
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Dave The Man wrote: | Could be a Dead Rubber for the Cats |
Remember the last dead rubber we played against them? _________________ Defender...........
On the day before the first, Daicos created God.
You like this. |
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Pies4shaw
pies4shaw
Joined: 08 Oct 2007
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Yes. That one cost us a premiership. |
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piedys
Heeeeeeere's Dyso!!!
Joined: 04 Sep 2003 Location: Resident Forum Psychopath since 2003
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Defender wrote: | Dave The Man wrote: | Could be a Dead Rubber for the Cats |
Remember the last dead rubber we played against them? |
Pies4shaw wrote: | Yes. That one cost us a premiership. |
And was that the most recent 15-goal flogging of us too, until yesterday? _________________ M I L L A N E 4 2 forever |
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ANNODAM
Rebel Heart Tour - The Forum, Los Angeles 27/10/2015.
Joined: 02 Jul 2007 Location: Eltham, VIC.
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No chance of a victory next week, we're a laughing stock! _________________ WE WERE ROBBED, RIGHT IN FRONT OF ME, RIGHT IN FRONT OF MEEE!
N.Y METS, N.Y GIANTS, PENRITH PANTHERS & HOBART HURRICANES FAN.
WE ALL LOOK GOOD AT TRAINING, IT'S THE MATCHES THAT COUNT! |
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Dave The Man
Joined: 01 Apr 2005 Location: Someville, Victoria, Australia
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ANNODAM wrote: | No chance of a victory next week, we're a laughing stock! |
You been saying that since 2010 _________________ I am Da Man |
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ANNODAM
Rebel Heart Tour - The Forum, Los Angeles 27/10/2015.
Joined: 02 Jul 2007 Location: Eltham, VIC.
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Dave The Man wrote: | ANNODAM wrote: | No chance of a victory next week, we're a laughing stock! |
You been saying that since 2012 |
There, fixed it for you! _________________ WE WERE ROBBED, RIGHT IN FRONT OF ME, RIGHT IN FRONT OF MEEE!
N.Y METS, N.Y GIANTS, PENRITH PANTHERS & HOBART HURRICANES FAN.
WE ALL LOOK GOOD AT TRAINING, IT'S THE MATCHES THAT COUNT! |
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Dave The Man
Joined: 01 Apr 2005 Location: Someville, Victoria, Australia
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ANNODAM wrote: | Dave The Man wrote: | ANNODAM wrote: | No chance of a victory next week, we're a laughing stock! |
You been saying that since 2012 |
There, fixed it for you! |
Well been for a while.
I remember you coming on and saying you where not buying Membership no more.
Then Since then you pretty much have posted Negative Stuff _________________ I am Da Man |
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AN_Inkling
Joined: 06 Oct 2007
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Pies4shaw wrote: | I understand that you disagree but I'm not sure why (that's not meant to be a smart comment - I'm inviting you to give me a detailed explanation, so that I can understand your argument better). The comparison with Hawthorn intrigues me - apart from a couple of experienced recruits added in, wasn't virtually the entirety of their 2013 and 2014 premiership teams already on their list in 2011? |
I also disagree as did Buckley and the club. Our plan at the end of 2011 was to continue to push for a Premiership. Our results in 2012 suggested that this was not unrealistic as we finished top 4 despite key injuries and a rookie coach.
Museman I think is right in saying that even post 2012 we still had the core of a quality team. A core which needed some gaps filled but not one that needed a rebuild. Again, this seemed to accord with the club's thinking. We went for Lynch to replace Brown and again looked to challenge. It was only at the end of 2013 that we started to think a mini rebuild was needed. From that point the rebuild got progressively deeper as more talent was lost.
Our decline was not because our 2011 list was thin (it wasn't) or that too many were at the end (most Premiership teams have more). We could recover from that in exactly the way Museman suggested, filling gaps with well targeted recruits (2 or 3 would have been plenty: inside mid, ruck, third tall forward). With free agency being brought in this was made even more realistic.
No, what really caused the decline to bite was the loss of talent at or near their peak, either through injury (Thomas, Reid) or other reasons (Wellingham, Dawes, Shaw, Lumumba, Beams, Thomas again). The drop off in performance of older players is not unusual for a Premiership team, the constant bleed of talent that the club would have preferred to keep is. It is this that sets us apart from Hawthorn and Geelong. Whether we would have declined anyway is an academic question, but I have no doubt that the decline was hastened and largely caused by the coaching handover which split the unity of the club and its playing group.
For where we are right now, it's a blessing that the handover hastened the decline, as we will rise more quickly given that much of the groundwork has been done. It will always nag at me though that we may have left a Premiership, or at least the chance of one, on the table due to taking one seriously bad decision. _________________ Well done boys!
Last edited by AN_Inkling on Sun Aug 23, 2015 11:03 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Monco Matt
Do it to THEM before THEY do it to YOU
Joined: 28 Apr 2009 Location: Sittin, Drinkin, Reloadin & Waitin
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Two teams now playing for nothing and we know what our attitude is towards games that mean nothing and I would imagine Geelong would see this as an opportunity to humiliate us on prime time tv.
Cats by 86 points. _________________ RED "BABY" CAVANAUGH: Didn't hear what the bet was.
MONCO: Your life. |
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