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Pies4shaw
pies4shaw
Joined: 08 Oct 2007
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Post subject: Drafting elite AFL players | |
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We all know that the last young player drafted by Collingwood who is by now already obviously "elite" was taken in 2008. I say "Sidebottom", most of the rest of you say "Beams" but, no matter, I think we can (almost all?) agree that no-one we have drafted since 2008 is an "elite" player of the competition, yet. Some of them may be but they aren't, yet.
We also know why Collingwood didn't draft young "elite" players in 2009 - we took two "elite" stars, instead, with picks 14, 30 and 46 and our real "young draft" started with Ben Sinclair with our 4th-round pick at pick 62, followed by Josh Thomas (77).
Similarly, in 2010, we traded our pick 25 for the then and there, taking Krak (and Jonathan Ceglar for the future). We also did a trivial trade of draft picks with Fremantle to get Tarrant back and moved from pick 44 to 45, with which we selected Fasolo. (For the record, Viv Michie was taken by Freo with our original pick 44 - he's currently at Melbourne and it's fair to say that I had never heard of him until I did the research for this post.) With our other picks, we took Farmer (46), Ugle (66), Seedsman (76) and Stubbs (77).
In 2011, we again traded pick 25 - this time for Elliott and Marty Clarke. We also did a trivial trade of draft places to secure Peter Yagmoor (Yagmoor and pick 50 in, pick 47 out). Thus, our first live pick in the draft was 50. We took Jackson Paine with that and Corey Gault with pick 65.
From 2012, as we know, Collingwood implemented a strategy of getting into the earlier part of the draft and, to a large extent, we still wait to see whether that strategy will prove to have been a successful one.
That raised in my mind the question of how to assess comparative drafting of "elite" players by clubs since 2008.
However, when I look at the draft lists since that time, I don't identify too many players that I think of as "elite" drafted by any club.
So, the purpose of this thread is to generate some discussion about who really are the players taken in the drafts from 2009 on that we would say are already "elite" players. I'll give my tentative list for a start but I should say that I only do it to kick things off - I don't really want to defend my list; rather, I want to see if I can generate enough responses to get a feel for what being an "elite" player really means.
2009
Martin
Fyffe
Maybe Stratton?
2010
Gaff
Heppell
Parker
Maybe Isaac Smith?
Maybe Caddy?
2011
Wingard
Lachie Neale
2012
Wines
2013
Josh Kelly?
Bontempelli?
2014
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John Wren
"Look after the game. It means so much to so many."
Joined: 15 Jul 2007
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of that list only fyfe is elite. the rest may be heading that way. bontempelli would be the one i'd pencil in for such a status. wingard is very talented but i wouldn't consider him elite. _________________ Purveyor of sanctimonious twaddle. |
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Pies4shaw
pies4shaw
Joined: 08 Oct 2007
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Mike Sheahan already had Heppell in his end of 2014 "Top 50". And I guess I was motivated by thinking - every time Collingwood has played Essendon since Heppell debuted - that he's the one player on the entire Essendon list I'd like to see in a black and white jumper.
Putting that aside, are there other players drafted from 2009 on that you think of as elite but I haven't mentioned, JW? |
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Pies2016
Joined: 12 Sep 2014
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That's interesting reading. There aren't as many as I would have thought if that's accurate.
Elite is a big wrap, so I am excluding Stratton, Caddy and Smith who are important but not elite. If you say Caddy is elite, its not much different to what Adams has achieved this year. Josh Kelly hasn't achieved much yet which is completely understandable. Wingard is more icing on the cake for mine.
Im happy to go early and add Jesse Hogan and Isaac Heeney into that list.
The Kolodjashnij twin at GCS is going very nicely and O Meara's debut season was ridiculous. Having said that, it is just to early to call any of them elite just yet.
Its just all so subjective at this stage but it shows that most kids need time to develop. If we were to revisit this list again in three years, you can guarantee there would be more to add. I also think finding players with natural leadership qualities is even harder than finding elite talent at a draft but that's for another thread. |
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thompsoc
Joined: 21 Sep 2009
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At last a decent and reflective thread by you. _________________ we don't eat our own at collingwood we just allow them to foul our nest. |
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Dave The Man
Joined: 01 Apr 2005 Location: Someville, Victoria, Australia
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The Club Rates Scharanberg to be an Elite Player.
De Goey and Moore could come Elite Players _________________ I am Da Man |
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mattys123
Joined: 06 Jul 2009 Location: Narre Warren, VIC
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No player is drafted elite, I mean how many players have actually walked into AFL football and played at an elite level in their first 2 seasons?
It's only been the last few seasons where we've had first round picks too, we traded them out when we were in contention to get the likes of Ball, Jolly and then Elliott (with Clarke).
We won't know how good our drafting of recent times will be for a few years yet. |
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Dave The Man
Joined: 01 Apr 2005 Location: Someville, Victoria, Australia
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mattys123 wrote: | No player is drafted elite, I mean how many players have actually walked into AFL football and played at an elite level in their first 2 seasons?
It's only been the last few seasons where we've had first round picks too, we traded them out when we were in contention to get the likes of Ball, Jolly and then Elliott (with Clarke).
We won't know how good our drafting of recent times will be for a few years yet. |
None takes about 4-5 seasons to get a Player to the Elite Level.
We traded lot of top Picks between 2009-2011 sop we missed on ton of High Draft Pick _________________ I am Da Man |
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HAL
Please don't shout at me - I can't help it.
Joined: 17 Mar 2003
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Where did [quote]
None take about 4-5 seasons to get a Player to the Elite Level? |
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Pies4shaw
pies4shaw
Joined: 08 Oct 2007
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Post subject: | |
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mattys123 wrote: | No player is drafted elite, I mean how many players have actually walked into AFL football and played at an elite level in their first 2 seasons?
It's only been the last few seasons where we've had first round picks too, we traded them out when we were in contention to get the likes of Ball, Jolly and then Elliott (with Clarke).
We won't know how good our drafting of recent times will be for a few years yet. |
I agree entirely - what I'm trying to do is see if we can establish, collectively, some sort of yardstick against which we can assess drafts - and also try to set a fair time-frame for reviewing past decisions. I don't think we can do either of those things unless we can get some sort of shared sense of how many players have become "elite" from recent drafts. |
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Pies4shaw
pies4shaw
Joined: 08 Oct 2007
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Pies2016 wrote: | That's interesting reading. There aren't as many as I would have thought if that's accurate.
Elite is a big wrap, so I am excluding Stratton, Caddy and Smith who are important but not elite. If you say Caddy is elite, its not much different to what Adams has achieved this year. Josh Kelly hasn't achieved much yet which is completely understandable. Wingard is more icing on the cake for mine.
Im happy to go early and add Jesse Hogan and Isaac Heeney into that list.
The Kolodjashnij twin at GCS is going very nicely and O Meara's debut season was ridiculous. Having said that, it is just to early to call any of them elite just yet.
Its just all so subjective at this stage but it shows that most kids need time to develop. If we were to revisit this list again in three years, you can guarantee there would be more to add. I also think finding players with natural leadership qualities is even harder than finding elite talent at a draft but that's for another thread. |
I've tried to be fair in my appraisal but I recognise that there may well be players I have missed - part of the exercise, from my perspective, is to see how many other players there are that people would, by reasonable consensus, wish to describe as "elite" who have been drafted since 2008. |
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Pies2016
Joined: 12 Sep 2014
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Pies4shaw wrote: | Pies2016 wrote: | That's interesting reading. There aren't as many as I would have thought if that's accurate.
Elite is a big wrap, so I am excluding Stratton, Caddy and Smith who are important but not elite. If you say Caddy is elite, its not much different to what Adams has achieved this year. Josh Kelly hasn't achieved much yet which is completely understandable. Wingard is more icing on the cake for mine.
Im happy to go early and add Jesse Hogan and Isaac Heeney into that list.
The Kolodjashnij twin at GCS is going very nicely and O Meara's debut season was ridiculous. Having said that, it is just to early to call any of them elite just yet.
Its just all so subjective at this stage but it shows that most kids need time to develop. If we were to revisit this list again in three years, you can guarantee there would be more to add. I also think finding players with natural leadership qualities is even harder than finding elite talent at a draft but that's for another thread. |
I've tried to be fair in my appraisal but I recognise that there may well be players I have missed - part of the exercise, from my perspective, is to see how many other players there are that people would, by reasonable consensus, wish to describe as "elite" who have been drafted since 2008. |
Not doubting your judgement at all, just a little surprised that more haven't declared themselves just yet. I think that's why it's a good thread in its own right.
Nobody saw that Fyfe was going to be this good when he was drafted at around 20. To be honest, in terms of elite in that group, there is Fyfe and then there is daylight. Once again, I think this thread is a constant reminder just how much patience is required before a kids true potential and ability can be fully understood. |
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inxs88
Joined: 17 Aug 2014
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Good thread. Champion data tend to have a rule especially when predicting the J curve effect of a draftee and that is to add 5 years from their debut season and that's when a "breakout" or push to elite status should start to materialise.
Ps: Sinclair was drafted in 2008 not 2009. Minor detail _________________ I love the Pies, hate Carlscum |
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swoop42
Whatcha gonna do when he comes for you?
Joined: 02 Aug 2008 Location: The 18
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John Wren wrote: | of that list only fyfe is elite. the rest may be heading that way. bontempelli would be the one i'd pencil in for such a status. wingard is very talented but i wouldn't consider him elite. |
Wingard is elite now.
He's the best small forward in the game this season. _________________ He's mad. He's bad. He's MaynHARD! |
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Pies4shaw
pies4shaw
Joined: 08 Oct 2007
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Post subject: | |
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inxs88 wrote: | Good thread. Champion data tend to have a rule especially when predicting the J curve effect of a draftee and that is to add 5 years from their debut season and that's when a "breakout" or push to elite status should start to materialise.
Ps: Sinclair was drafted in 2008 not 2009. Minor detail |
Sinclair was definitely pick 62 in 2009. I took my figures from footywire, but the same info comes up everywhere else I've looked. In 2008, we drafted Sidebottom, Beams, Blight, Rounds and Leigh Brown. |
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