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swoop42 
Whatcha gonna do when he comes for you?
Joined: 02 Aug 2008
Location: The 18
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| David wrote: | Even I know who Larry Pickering is. Once one of the most famous Australian cartoonists, in later life known mostly for being the (deserving) target of Julia Gillard's 'misogynists and nutjobs on the internet' reference.
Don't know what's wrong with the youth of today. Next you'll be telling me you don't know who Ziggy Pop is!  |
How about Zig or Zag.
I always get confused about which one touched my willy.
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He's mad. He's bad. He's MaynHARD! |
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HAL
Please don't shout at me - I can't help it.
Joined: 17 Mar 2003
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| I can wait. I am a very patient . |
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watt price tully 
Joined: 15 May 2007
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| think positive wrote: | Ok so you think having to pay for halal certification is justified?
You can't see why people are upset the products cost more?
How about for things like milk or yogurt, where halal certification means squat? |
It's not the issue & it's a baloney argument designed to get the gullible backs up as part of a wider disinformation campaign with malevolent intent about Muslims. Don't get me wrong, I think there is a lot wrong with Islam & it's followers a lot of the time.
Talk to me about ritual slaughter then that is highly likely to be a different matter.
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“I even went as far as becoming a Southern Baptist until I realised they didn’t keep ‘em under long enough” Kinky Friedman |
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watt price tully
Joined: 15 May 2007
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swoop42
Whatcha gonna do when he comes for you?
Joined: 02 Aug 2008
Location: The 18
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I'd like to see a beard off between Muslims, Christians and Jews.
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He's mad. He's bad. He's MaynHARD! |
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swoop42
Whatcha gonna do when he comes for you?
Joined: 02 Aug 2008
Location: The 18
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Looking at one of the links below reminded me how I thought nothing could look worse than "the Hitler".
After seeing "the Daniher" yesterday I'm reconsidering.
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He's mad. He's bad. He's MaynHARD! |
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pietillidie
Joined: 07 Jan 2005
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| Wokko wrote: | | David wrote: | | Great post, PTID. |
Except it's not. Show me all these so called "Christian Fundamentalists" who are following the laws of Leviticus or Deutoronomy, who are keeping slaves or pimping out their daughters. Even the most hardcore of Christians are willing to give themselves some wiggle room when it comes to their holy book, hell they even let more than a few of Jesus' teachings from the Gospels slide. You would be very hard pressed to find even a small sect of 100% pure Biblical literalists anywhere in the World. Even the Latin mass crowd who dismiss Vatican 2 don't follow everything.
Sure, there are many who think the world is 6000 years old and everything was created in 7 days and all the archeological and paleontological record was also created by God but even those people wont put a woman on her period up in a tree.
The Quran however has many, many people who follow it as the 100% literal word of Allah and see any interpretation, even of the obviously allegorical portions of the book as being against the word of Allah. Sure, they fight about which of Mohammed's descendants had the right ideas but on the book there aren't too many questions. |
Do you still think the psychosocial phenomenon of fundamentalism is about specific local forms?
Fundamentalism is an emotionally-forced splitting which uses exaggerated external control as a proxy for resolving internal turmoil. It doesn't matter if its form is a Levitical law which splits between pure and impure, a cosmology that splits between a corrupt present and a utopian future, a nationalism that splits between a rational and a barbaric, or a biblical inspiration that splits between the perfect and the imperfect Logos; its an immature emotional defence mechanism. The inability to cope with internal contradiction seeks order in anything from invading Iraq, stoning women, withholding safe abortion rights, balancing budgets and denying a systematic religious culture of child abuse, to demanding rights to hack down and "tame" wilderness, systematically lock black fathers up, shoot black folk before they shoot us, and force Australian Aborigines to choose one culture or the other--and right now because the current neither-here-nor-there impure cultural state is unsettling me!
Like children with sensory filtering disorders, our own Fundamentalist Light folk can't take their eyes off the beards and funny clothes to grasp the underlying destructive fundamentalism of their histrionic splits between "ruling" and "ruled", "capitalism" and "socialism", and "legitimate" and "illicit" substances. If these very same folk were born elsewhere, they'd be leading the Saudi stonings. Instead, to maintain emotional order within, they suppress the supreme contradiction of the Anglo-American love affair with Saudi Arabia and its extremist sponsorship as if it doesn't really exist - much like global warming and racial discrimination.
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In the end the rain comes down, washes clean the streets of a blue sky town.
Help Nick's: http://www.magpies.net/nick/bb/fundraising.htm |
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Wokko 
Come and take it.
Joined: 04 Oct 2005
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"Individual Moslems may show splendid qualities. Thousands become the brave and loyal soldiers of the Queen: all know how to die: but the influence of the religion paralyses the social development of those who follow it. No stronger retrograde force exists in the world. Far from being moribund, Mohammedanism is a militant and proselytizing faith. It has already spread throughout Central Africa, raising fearless warriors at every step; and were it not that Christianity is sheltered in the strong arms of science, the science against which it had vainly struggled, the civilisation of modern Europe might fall, as fell the civilisation of ancient Rome" - Winston Churchill : The River War.
He wasn't wrong then, and it's still the case now. It amazes me you can't see the fundamentalism you claim to be fighting against so firmly embedded in your own views. Views from which I have never seen you budge, not an inch. Like every liberal progressive from here to San Fransisco, you think your views are as infallible as Catholics find the Pope's and must be thrust onto all the uneducated masses no matter how they feel or what their arguments are because you're right and they're wrong.
I'll grant you the odd vibe on the Saudi alliance, however anyone who has put some thought into this issue and fallen somewhere on my side of the ledger finds Saudi Arabia to be as vile a regime as any in the Islamic world, personally I'd place them a very small step below IS and way above the current bogeymen of Iran and Syria. Not sure what geopolitics has to do with it on a purely philosophical level, but in this case I'm happy to indulge. |
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pietillidie
Joined: 07 Jan 2005
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| Wokko wrote: | "Individual Moslems may show splendid qualities. Thousands become the brave and loyal soldiers of the Queen: all know how to die: but the influence of the religion paralyses the social development of those who follow it. No stronger retrograde force exists in the world. Far from being moribund, Mohammedanism is a militant and proselytizing faith. It has already spread throughout Central Africa, raising fearless warriors at every step; and were it not that Christianity is sheltered in the strong arms of science, the science against which it had vainly struggled, the civilisation of modern Europe might fall, as fell the civilisation of ancient Rome" - Winston Churchill : The River War.
He wasn't wrong then, and it's still the case now. It amazes me you can't see the fundamentalism you claim to be fighting against so firmly embedded in your own views. Views from which I have never seen you budge, not an inch. Like every liberal progressive from here to San Fransisco, you think your views are as infallible as Catholics find the Pope's and must be thrust onto all the uneducated masses no matter how they feel or what their arguments are because you're right and they're wrong.
I'll grant you the odd vibe on the Saudi alliance, however anyone who has put some thought into this issue and fallen somewhere on my side of the ledger finds Saudi Arabia to be as vile a regime as any in the Islamic world, personally I'd place them a very small step below IS and way above the current bogeymen of Iran and Syria. Not sure what geopolitics has to do with it on a purely philosophical level, but in this case I'm happy to indulge. |
I'm very happy to change my view if becomes untenable in the face of world evidence, hence my personal evolution from evangelical Christian to social Gospel Christian, to Marxian (not to be confused with "Marxist"), to post-nationalist, to something like "progressive competitionist". But you're entering the flat earth realm for someone who claims to take carefully-reasoned science seriously. There is no reasonable version of what is a tangle of gut feelings. Meanwhile, the only view I have is that we don't know the entities "Muslim" or "religion", or the relationship between them and specific human behaviour from our bumholes. Not much by way of assertion is needed to demonstrate that!
You quote Churchill's The River of War; the segue is impeccable.
First, you have a man who saw the rape and pillage of colonial lands by Euro-Anglo-American Christians, and then witnessed the holocaust of Jews, Roma, homosexuals and the disabled by German Christians. Second, you have a man who saw the rise of non- and anti-religious Communism, and witnessed the fine efforts of Stalin and Mao. Too bad he missed the fine non-religious efforts of the Khmer Rouge!
You can't see the problem there? You're not willing to do the science of "religion" or "belief", but not even the lowest-resolution historiography supports your views: It can't be religion while you have other violent non-religious "thought systems" such as communism, and it can't be Islam while you have other violent religions. If you're not going to engage the science behind that reductionistic formula, then at least be true to its simple logic.
Honestly, you're holding on to psycho-social flat earth views when you have the wherewithal to see the problem. Surely, you already know there is no predictable directionality from specific sets of ideas to mass violent behaviour because the causes of violence are manifold, and ideas are as likely to be post-rationalisations as they are to be motivations. Meanwhile, the same ideas mean very different things in different social milieus and cause different folk to do very different things. We can't even define an "idea" or "religion" as a starting point for reasoning the problem through, let alone quantify a "social milieu" to such an extent that we can usefully compare one milieu to another! The whole thing is a parlour game, not something to be relied upon to make life-impacting decisions concerning others. The standards we expect from doctors when it comes to ourselves, and the standards we accept when it comes to impacting the lives of those we have dehumanised in our heads ought to worry you a hell of a lot more than it does.
The only way people can rationalise making such claims is by seeking moral cover from others who are also driven by whatever inner discomfort causes folk to justify holding down fellow humans. The bum-slapping fest might make them feel all warmsomething I certainly felt growing up religiousbut it has nothing to do with serious problem solving, and certainly nothing to do with the ethics of intervening in the lives of other people.
You'll have to excuse me mocking those who suckle from the in-group or dominant-group breasts to sleep at night; however, what other leverage is there over group affirmation and hysteria but the mockery of its self-referential cowardice? Good ideas lead to good people; we're great people, so our ideas must be great! That's the level of reasoning you're dealing with here.
Personally, I recommend a move way outside your comfort zone to purposely shake your received notions so you can test how provisional and vulnerable they really are. I certainly believe you are vastly more sincere than most people on these things and are not piling on Muslims for financial or social glory. But you're clinging to the received exceptionalism and splitting the world out of fear of uncertainty and change, trampling the unique and complex life experiences of 2B people in the process.
And this is how warped people's sense of moral proportion can be once they've dehumanised the Other: They have no qualms making innocent Muslim families and children paranoid, nervous wrecks; no qualms heaping stress on families through a barrage of insulting, threatening talk and media consumption day after day; no second thoughts about inciting the war machine into action on their behalf to kill people young and old in far off lands they can't even locate on a map; but by god they get offended when you rightly point out how irrational, undisciplined, self-centred and Machiavellian their efforts to influence the public debate are. I mean, talk about an inability to see and feel beyond their own navels.
If you want to to have a serious technical discussion outside the sciencegiven the science still can't define "religion" and has barely even started understanding what an "idea" iswe can talk security as a practical way of defending our common safety against generic dysfunction. I too don't want to be blown up by a loon of any stripe. But leave the colonial anthropology and pre-cognitive revolution morality to the Honourable Christian Tony Abbott as he forcefully brings Aboriginal communities into his psycho-social control space, resolving his inner fundamentalist discomfort with "mixed cultures" and narcissistically attempting to make a name for himself at the expense of Australia's most vulnerable.
_________________
In the end the rain comes down, washes clean the streets of a blue sky town.
Help Nick's: http://www.magpies.net/nick/bb/fundraising.htm
Last edited by pietillidie on Mon Apr 27, 2015 8:00 am; edited 1 time in total |
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think positive 
Side By Side
Joined: 30 Jun 2005
Location: somewhere
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| watt price tully wrote: | | think positive wrote: | Ok so you think having to pay for halal certification is justified?
You can't see why people are upset the products cost more?
How about for things like milk or yogurt, where halal certification means squat? |
It's not the issue & it's a baloney argument designed to get the gullible backs up as part of a wider disinformation campaign with malevolent intent about Muslims. Don't get me wrong, I think there is a lot wrong with Islam & it's followers a lot of the time.
Talk to me about ritual slaughter then that is highly likely to be a different matter. |
Boy firing tonight!
It is the issue, it's a bullshit way to get manufacturers (different to producers of real food) to pay a Muslim tax. And we pay for it. And yes, the cruel slaughter methods come into it. It's not necessary, and it's bullshit. Halal and those cruel methods, is all bullshit.
And the people, the $$%^%%$ sheep who follow these ridiculous requirements are $$%^%%$ stupid brainwashed fools.
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You cant fix stupid, turns out you cant quarantine it either! |
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pietillidie
Joined: 07 Jan 2005
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^I recommend you get your priorities right and roll your sleeves up to help put an end to fossil fuels and the beef industry to mitigate global warming. The beef industry is a major greenhouse polluter, so that would solve both issues for you, and all the cruelty done by non-Halal beef slaughter. (Meanwhile, the fossil fuel market is the major funder of violent extremism and underdevelopment in the Middle East and thereabouts).
You do realise the suffering global warming is already causing the animal kingdom makes Halal slaughter methods seem pleasant, right? That is, if you're willing to move away from the comforts of the media and follow starving, infection-plagued animals around for a couple of years while they slowly waste away due to increased temperatures.
Or is it much harder to work up the motivation for that?
_________________
In the end the rain comes down, washes clean the streets of a blue sky town.
Help Nick's: http://www.magpies.net/nick/bb/fundraising.htm |
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David
I dare you to try
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda
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| think positive wrote: | Ok so you think having to pay for halal certification is justified?
You can't see why people are upset the products cost more?
How about for things like milk or yogurt, where halal certification means squat? |
Can you tell me exactly how much extra you're paying per product in order to cover Halal and Kosher certification? Do you know how much extra you're paying for toys in breakfast cereal packets, which you have to subsidise even if you don't have kids? Do you know how much extra you're paying for colourful packaging?
Do you know that exactly the same principle behind Halal and Kosher certification applies for the Heart Foundation 'tick'?
http://www.heartfoundation.org.au/healthy-eating/heart-foundation-tick/Pages/smart-shopping.aspx
| Quote: | Do food companies pay for the tick?
Food companies pay a licence fee only once their product has met the Tick Programs nutritional standards. The Tick program runs on a cost recovery basis and the fees are used to manage the activities of the program.
Every product with the Tick can be randomly tested at any time to ensure it continues to meet our nutritional standards. The fees charged to companies with food bearing the Tick cover the costs of these checks, along with the cost of running the program.
Licence fees from food companies are the only income source for the Tick. Donations from members of the public are used to fund life saving research and to fund our community heart health programs. |
You may find that more personally useful than Halal/Kosher certification, but for Muslims and Jews it's every bit as important. And for companies freely making the decision to seek out this certificationnobody's forcing them, rememberit makes just as much commercial sense.
Allowing Halal and Kosher certification is one of the most basic forms of religious tolerance, one of the principles on which this country was founded. If you don't like it, perhaps you'd prefer to live in a different country.
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All watched over by machines of loving grace |
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stui magpie 
Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.
Joined: 03 May 2005
Location: In flagrante delicto
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| David wrote: | Even I know who Larry Pickering is. Once one of the most famous Australian cartoonists, in later life known mostly for being the (deserving) target of Julia Gillard's 'misogynists and nutjobs on the internet' reference.
Don't know what's wrong with the youth of today. Next you'll be telling me you don't know who Ziggy Pop is! |
Iggy. 
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Every dead body on Mt Everest was once a highly motivated person, so maybe just calm the **** down. |
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David
I dare you to try
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda
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stui magpie
Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.
Joined: 03 May 2005
Location: In flagrante delicto
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Nope, never watched trainspotting, I'm not a fan of foreign films. 
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Every dead body on Mt Everest was once a highly motivated person, so maybe just calm the **** down. |
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