Work Choices MKII
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Wokko
Come and take it.
Joined: 04 Oct 2005
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Minimum wage doesn't give low end workers a 'liveable wage', it prices them out of the market and leaves them unemployed. Why would someone on the dole care if a boss is driving a BMW when they're catching the bus to a job network provider?
All the focus is on people who earn a lot vs the middle classes, none of whom are effected by minimum wage laws. The laws impact the bottom of the social classes by denying employment to low skilled workers.
“A minimum wage law is, in reality, a law that makes it illegal for an employer to hire a person with limited skills.” - Milton Friedman |
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Culprit
Joined: 06 Feb 2003 Location: Port Melbourne
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^^There's the Liberal thing, we should be grateful to have a job even if it is $2 an hour. |
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Wokko
Come and take it.
Joined: 04 Oct 2005
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Culprit wrote: | ^^There's the Liberal thing, we should be grateful to have a job even if it is $2 an hour. |
Who would take that job? Nobody. Countries without minimum wages still have livable incomes.
There are seven European Union (E.U.) countries in which no minimum wage is mandated (Austria, Cyprus, Denmark, Finland, Germany, Italy, and Sweden).
Total strawman to say that having no universal minimum wage law leads to people earning $2 an hour. The only place I can think of that has anything close to that is USA hospitality workers who earn their wages through tips instead. That is an issue with culture, not wage laws. If there was no tipping in the USA there would be no waitresses if their wages stayed as what they are now.
Also, I'm not a Liberal voter and never have been.
Last edited by Wokko on Fri Jan 23, 2015 3:50 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Tannin
Can't remember
Joined: 06 Aug 2006 Location: Huon Valley Tasmania
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Good misleading Liberal propaganda there, Wokko. What you are not showing is the average standard of living for those people, whether employed or not, and once you look at that you see that, under your lunatic scheme to throw away all that we have achieved over the last 200 years, abolishing the protection of a minimum wage simply substitutes the misery of poverty while unemployed for the misery of poverty while having to work as well. Not only are the unemployed no better off (makes no difference whether you get bugger-all income 'coz you're unemployed or bugger-all income 'coz you get paid $2 an hour), but everybody else is worse-off too 'coz no-one earns a decent living even when tey are working. Except the richest 50%, of course, and especially the richest 5% - they are laughing all the way too the bank. _________________ �Let's eat Grandma.� Commas save lives! |
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Wokko
Come and take it.
Joined: 04 Oct 2005
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Good misleading union/socialist propaganda there, Tannin. The figures in countries comparable to ours without minimum wages don't back up your rhetoric. Also add to the above Switzerland (recently knocked back a proposal for a huge minimum wage) and Singapore.
I would rather see those people living in abject poverty due to our insanely high minimum wage be able to earn a living. Personally I've taken cash jobs for below minimum wage because it was the only employment I could find at the time. If I'd demanded my 'rights' then I would've been on $200 a week. The people good enough to give me these jobs had to break the law in order to do so. |
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Lazza
Joined: 04 Feb 2003 Location: Bendigo, Victoria, Australia
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Tannin wrote: | Good misleading Liberal propaganda there, Wokko. What you are not showing is the average standard of living for those people, whether employed or not, and once you look at that you see that, under your lunatic scheme to throw away all that we have achieved over the last 200 years, abolishing the protection of a minimum wage simply substitutes the misery of poverty while unemployed for the misery of poverty while having to work as well. Not only are the unemployed no better off (makes no difference whether you get bugger-all income 'coz you're unemployed or bugger-all income 'coz you get paid $2 an hour), but everybody else is worse-off too 'coz no-one earns a decent living even when tey are working. Except the richest 50%, of course, and especially the richest 5% - they are laughing all the way too the bank. |
Typically TRUE right winged policy. The rich can get richer while the poor please themselves to scraps..
In 36 years of work, I have yet to see the "Trickle down effect" reach the bottom parts of the triangle. It is all soaked up in the middle by the middle class. Hardly anything reaches the bottom 10%.
Every right winged policy I know of attempts to keep things this way, so that it always protects the rich while attacking the poor.... _________________ Don't confuse your current path with your final destination. Just because it's dark and stormy now doesn't meant that you aren't headed for glorious sunshine! |
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Culprit
Joined: 06 Feb 2003 Location: Port Melbourne
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I didn't say Liberal Voter, "that's the Liberal Thing". People earn less means people spend less means the economy is in worse shape but the Rich can clean up on mortgage defaults as people will default. Oh hang on the Liberal spin is the bosses will employ more people, they never have and never will. Oh hang on more Liberal Spin, the costs of goods will drop, ah yes we all get to see that beauty for what it is.
Now Holden and Ford closed because the dollar was to high and mean the Labour costs were too high. Bang the dollar is now below US 80 cents and they are not rushing to keep them open. What we have is misleading bullshit put out by the Rich to screw the poor over even more and there is no surprise we have the Born to Rule mob in power leading the way.
Apathetic Australians are finally waking up. |
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Wokko
Come and take it.
Joined: 04 Oct 2005
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Higher wages lead to inflation, inflation destroys savings. Higher wages lead to higher costs. It is WAY more expensive to live in Australia than almost anywhere else in the world.
Also you say that having no minimum wage doesn't lead to more jobs when I provided evidence to back up the assertion that in fact it does lead to more jobs and lower unemployment, particularly youth unemployment. I then gave the European countries, all with high standards of living that do not have minimum wages. |
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3.14159
Joined: 12 Sep 2009
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Wokko wrote: |
“A minimum wage law is, in reality, a law that makes it illegal for an employer to hire a person with limited skills.” - Milton Friedman
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"Lies, damned lies, and statistics".
Def: phrase describing the persuasive power of numbers, particularly the use of statistics to bolster weak arguments.
The term was popularised in the United States by Mark Twain.
He also wrote...
"Figures often beguile me, particularly when I have the arranging of them myself".
...
Less money in the pockets of the poor means we'll all have more money to spend?
Pull the other one! |
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stui magpie
Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.
Joined: 03 May 2005 Location: In flagrante delicto
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As predictable as night following day, a Lib government commissions a review into IR and the Unions put their PR machine into overdrive, disguising supposition as fact and shrieks to all and sundry about Workchoices mk II.
And just as predictably the faithful fall into line, joining in the flagellation and frothing as if there was actually something of substance to rail against. As if rather than merely having the terms of reference of a review to be conducted, the review had been conducted legislation framed and passed through the senate and was about to be enacted.
The Union PR machine is good. Never let the facts get in the way of a good story, but they're real good.
Lets be clear, some things need to be reviewed in the IR framework and it aint gonna be done by Labor, not with their union masters staring over their shoulders. The IR reform will come from the Libs and then next time Labor is in they get to repeal the really bad bits, keep the good bits as the unions don't have a case and tweak the bits in the middle.
Howards workplace reforms were generally pretty good until he went overboard in his last term. Then when Krudd got in he actually did a good job in re-writing the legislation. He kept and expanded on the Award reform process Howard started leading to a massive simplification of the Industrial environment. He was able to do that because Howard had already broken the previous environment and started the rebuild. Krudd was able to insert a few tweaks and finish a job that Labor would have never been able to start, and finish it with an overall good and fair outcome across the board.
The unions were happy enough at the start as they got the main thing they wanted, individual contracts removed, enshrining their monopoly yet again. Still, as soon as they managed to install their preferred option, Jules in the chair, they got her to quickly slide through a few more little tweaks which probably only people who work in IR would recognise the significance off.
So everyone feel free to run around and cry that the sky is falling, you're behaving exactly as expected. It's all part of the cycle. _________________ Every dead body on Mt Everest was once a highly motivated person, so maybe just calm the **** down. |
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3.14159
Joined: 12 Sep 2009
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And here's Stui dishing it out to Rudd, Gillard and the Unions...again.
This thread is dead, buried and cremated. |
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Wokko
Come and take it.
Joined: 04 Oct 2005
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3.14159 wrote: | Wokko wrote: |
“A minimum wage law is, in reality, a law that makes it illegal for an employer to hire a person with limited skills.” - Milton Friedman
|
"Lies, damned lies, and statistics".
Def: phrase describing the persuasive power of numbers, particularly the use of statistics to bolster weak arguments.
The term was popularised in the United States by Mark Twain.
He also wrote...
"Figures often beguile me, particularly when I have the arranging of them myself".
...
Less money in the pockets of the poor means we'll all have more money to spend?
Pull the other one! |
Pathetic obfuscation. You don't attack the evidence, you attack the mere existence of the evidence, because in lefty land feelings > facts.
Do you know what leads to less money in the pockets of the poor? Being unemployed. |
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stui magpie
Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.
Joined: 03 May 2005 Location: In flagrante delicto
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3.14159 wrote: | And here's Stui dishing it out to Rudd, Gillard and the Unions...again.
This thread is dead, buried and cremated. |
Mate, read what I wrote, it's all factual whether you like it or not. _________________ Every dead body on Mt Everest was once a highly motivated person, so maybe just calm the **** down. |
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Tannin
Can't remember
Joined: 06 Aug 2006 Location: Huon Valley Tasmania
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Wokko wrote: | Higher wages lead to inflation, inflation destroys savings. |
You need to study a little economics before you repeat such silly things.
(1) Inflation is the least of our problems. Most economists regard a moderate amount of inflation as a good and necessary thing. Our own Reserve Bank, for example, tries to keep average inflation below 3% but it also aims to keep average inflation above 2%.
(2) Higher wages can indeed lead to inflation, but are
[li] (a) only one factor among many
[li](b) only produce inflation when wage growth is less than productivity growth. (Pay attention to the graphs PTID posted earlier demonstrating conclusively that wage growth in Australia is well below productivity growth and has been for many years. Note also that wages are not growing at all in Abbott's Australia; real wages are dropping under this government.)
[li] (c) an insignificant inflationary factor unless there is a widespread labour shortage sufficiently serious to cause market forces to push wages up strongly - we haven't seen this sort of scenario in Australia for many decades, and probably won't ever see it again.
(3) Inflation doesn't "destroy savings". Savings are only destroyed by poor investment policies, such as hiding your money under the bed, or putting it into very low interest accounts and leaving it there, or sinking it into a wasting asset of declining real value, such as newspaper and coal mine shares or the wrong commodity. In general, market interest rates adjust themselves to be a little more than the current inflation rate. Most normal investments (shares, real estate, bonds, super accounts) increase at more than the rate of inflation (short-term swings aside), and increase fastest when inflation is highest. If your granny is stupid enough to invest her life savings at 2% interest when inflation is running at 5%, that's got nothing to do with wages, it's to do with stupidity and/or bad advice from the financial sector shonks Abbott and Sinodinos and Cormoron are so keen to protect. _________________ �Let's eat Grandma.� Commas save lives! |
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Joel
Joined: 23 Mar 1999 Location: Mornington Peninsula
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Culprit wrote: | I know someone too that drives a petty machine that any monkey can drive, no experience required hey Joel. They miss Family Birthdays, they miss Christmas with their families. They work Sundays, they work at Nights so the motoring public are not inconvenienced travelling to work. He has no choice but to work, yes he earns a lot of money but he gives away plenty. He would take a 20% pay cut if it meant he was home with his family and worked normal hours. Walk a mile in their shoes. |
All true points.
Yet, there are cleaners who do the exact same thing and would not be paid anywhere near as much.
On the other hand many skilled workers have spent years studying (and paid to do so), spending little time with their family, have worked long hours to get ahead and still are paid little. |
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