Vale Gough Whitlam
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watt price tully 
Joined: 15 May 2007
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| Pies4shaw wrote: | Why are you surprised, WPT?
Jezza has just adopted a modern-day-standard conservative position: support all the laissez-faire "liberal" and soft reforms, get the heavily-subsidised law degree, make a pile of money (or, better still, imagine the endless pile of money you will make) and then whinge about other people getting subsidies.
"Those of us wealthy enough not to need welfare or subsidised education and who can pay for own (heavily-subsidised) healthcare know very well that the 'needy' and 'unfit' are dragging us down."
People who lived through the 50's or 60's got a proper sense of the lack of opportunities for intelligent, capable people from the "wrong side of the tracks" in the dim, dark ages (ie, our youth). I think living through that miserable, transitional period in Australian history makes us better-appreciate what a transformation Gough's ALP wrought. |
Obviously everyone is entitled to their views. I find it very sad & disturbing that some young people or older people for that matter can't see the benefit if not goal of universal health care & for that matter equality of opportunity. That is, the basic human right to access education, health & housing that is not determined by how much money you have or your postcode
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pietillidie
Joined: 07 Jan 2005
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| watt price tully wrote: | | Pies4shaw wrote: | Why are you surprised, WPT?
Jezza has just adopted a modern-day-standard conservative position: support all the laissez-faire "liberal" and soft reforms, get the heavily-subsidised law degree, make a pile of money (or, better still, imagine the endless pile of money you will make) and then whinge about other people getting subsidies.
"Those of us wealthy enough not to need welfare or subsidised education and who can pay for own (heavily-subsidised) healthcare know very well that the 'needy' and 'unfit' are dragging us down."
People who lived through the 50's or 60's got a proper sense of the lack of opportunities for intelligent, capable people from the "wrong side of the tracks" in the dim, dark ages (ie, our youth). I think living through that miserable, transitional period in Australian history makes us better-appreciate what a transformation Gough's ALP wrought. |
Obviously everyone is entitled to their views. I find it very sad & disturbing that some young people or older people for that matter can't see the benefit if not goal of universal health care & for that matter equality of opportunity. That is, the basic human right to access education, health & housing that is not determined by how much money you have or your postcode |
Like many people Jezza simply has never lived in a society without universal healthcare. But Jezza has an excuse for not realising there are zero lived, actual, operating measurable world facts supporting his view; what about the old dills who at 50 still don't know enough about the wider world to make that judgement?
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stui magpie 
Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.
Joined: 03 May 2005
Location: In flagrante delicto
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| watt price tully wrote: | | stui magpie wrote: | A view from Terry McCrann that I tend to agree with.
[l. |
Do you ever disagree with McCrann? I told you a long time ago got to get rid of the blow up McCrann doll  
For me as usual he's pretty much a rodent who is so far right wing that he often compromises his judgment. Not everything McCann says is wrong (obviously) but he is so ideologically up his own arse he can't see the woods for the trees (mind you who can when your heads placed there)
I blame it on that breakfast you went to with work all those years ago - they put something in your coffee |
Hah, I don't always agree with him, quite often I disagree. Funnily enough I wouldn't post articles that I disagree with to make a point now would I, so you wouldn't see those
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Every dead body on Mt Everest was once a highly motivated person, so maybe just calm the **** down. |
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Wokko 
Come and take it.
Joined: 04 Oct 2005
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As a card carrying Libertarian I still support universal health care. The USA shows that the state will pay more and tax more when it doesn't exist than when it does. From a purely pragmatic point it makes more sense, at least at this stage.
These days though we see Whitlam's government through rose coloured glasses, especially those of us too young to remember or who weren't even born yet. Remember he was eviscerated twice at elections post sacking. |
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partypie
Joined: 01 Oct 2010
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Interesting that Australia's health spending compares favourably with that of other countries. It may be that bulk billing etc encourages preventative medicine and early intervention, reducing the health spend.
I was on swat vac studying for HSC and listening to Parliament on the day of the dismissal. I had just written an essay for Social Studies predicting community division arising from the conflict between the two Houses of Parliament would last for decades. Paul Keating said much the same on the 7.30 Report the other night. |
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partypie
Joined: 01 Oct 2010
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| Also it should be noted when discussing the alleged financial incompetence of the Whitlam government, that once installed as caretaker government, Bill Hayden's budget was passed in full by the coalition. Once elected the coalition's expenditure review committee sold off many public assets which were actually very valuable, for example, optic fibre technology, developed at Melboure University, was sold to Bell for a paltry $3 million. |
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think positive 
Side By Side
Joined: 30 Jun 2005
Location: somewhere
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RIP
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stui magpie
Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.
Joined: 03 May 2005
Location: In flagrante delicto
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| Wokko wrote: | As a card carrying Libertarian I still support universal health care. The USA shows that the state will pay more and tax more when it doesn't exist than when it does. From a purely pragmatic point it makes more sense, at least at this stage.
These days though we see Whitlam's government through rose coloured glasses, especially those of us too young to remember or who weren't even born yet. Remember he was eviscerated twice at elections post sacking. |
I support universal health care and I support what he did with Universities and actually most the things he did. He took a number of things from one extreme to the other and totally changed the playing field. Even if changes have been made to some of those things over time, such as HECS (by whatever name), private health insurance or medicare levy surcharges, the fact remains pretty much none of the things he changed have reverted back to the way they were. That alone should say something about what he did, 40 years later his influence is indelible.
As you say, the rose coloured glasses impact many people. I prefer to see the good and the bad and just acknowledge both, with no disrespect to his legacy intended.
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Every dead body on Mt Everest was once a highly motivated person, so maybe just calm the **** down. |
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watt price tully
Joined: 15 May 2007
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| partypie wrote: | .....
I was on swat vac studying for HSC and listening to Parliament on the day of the dismissal. I had just written an essay for Social Studies predicting community division arising from the conflict between the two Houses of Parliament would last for decades. Paul Keating said much the same on the 7.30 Report the other night. |
We must be of a similar vintage.
I spent 12 months (like a gap year) working on a kibbutz - mostly in the banana fields. We'd done 1/2 days work - from 6.30 - 12.30 - a whole group volunteers. It was always a scramble when you got off the vehicle & rushed to to the lunch room, a communal dining room. It was a race to get the only English speaking newspaper.
An American guy got their first & read out the news saying "hey, your Governor general sacked your prime minister".
I only had about 2 more months there.
_________________
“I even went as far as becoming a Southern Baptist until I realised they didn’t keep ‘em under long enough” Kinky Friedman |
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sixpoints
Joined: 27 Sep 2010
Location: Lulie Street
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| stui magpie wrote: | | Wokko wrote: | As a card carrying Libertarian I still support universal health care. The USA shows that the state will pay more and tax more when it doesn't exist than when it does. From a purely pragmatic point it makes more sense, at least at this stage.
These days though we see Whitlam's government through rose coloured glasses, especially those of us too young to remember or who weren't even born yet. Remember he was eviscerated twice at elections post sacking. |
I support universal health care and I support what he did with Universities and actually most the things he did. He took a number of things from one extreme to the other and totally changed the playing field. Even if changes have been made to some of those things over time, such as HECS (by whatever name), private health insurance or medicare levy surcharges, the fact remains pretty much none of the things he changed have reverted back to the way they were. That alone should say something about what he did, 40 years later his influence is indelible.
As you say, the rose coloured glasses impact many people. I prefer to see the good and the bad and just acknowledge both, with no disrespect to his legacy intended. |
Nice.
His policies changed my life. I went to university.
But more so my parents & siblings (my uncles etc) who all grew up in Abbotsford recognised this as they had no choices in life. To a person they were intelligent, sophisticated people but not one went beyond schooling past Year 8. And yes, it did affect them. They knew were they were denied chances in life.
So I'm not eulogising Gough per se, but he and his ilk gave people in this county opportunities that they had always previously been denied.
Before the ALP won government in 1972, the talent inherent in Australia was being wasted. |
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stui magpie
Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.
Joined: 03 May 2005
Location: In flagrante delicto
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| sixpoints wrote: |
Nice.
His policies changed my life. I went to university. . |
That's the interesting part for me. I was raised in the bush so when I finished high school I applied to Uni and got accepted to several courses. I had choice. Problem was, the uni course may have been free but 3 hours drive to get to Melbourne wasn't optimal and paying for accommodation in melbourne without a job wasn't an option. So I chose the option of getting a job and working my way up.
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Every dead body on Mt Everest was once a highly motivated person, so maybe just calm the **** down. |
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Jezza 
2023 PREMIERS!
Joined: 06 Sep 2010
Location: Ponsford End
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| Pies4shaw wrote: | Why are you surprised, WPT?
Jezza has just adopted a modern-day-standard conservative position: support all the laissez-faire "liberal" and soft reforms, get the heavily-subsidised law degree, make a pile of money (or, better still, imagine the endless pile of money you will make) and then whinge about other people getting subsidies.
"Those of us wealthy enough not to need welfare or subsidised education and who can pay for own (heavily-subsidised) healthcare know very well that the 'needy' and 'unfit' are dragging us down."
People who lived through the 50's or 60's got a proper sense of the lack of opportunities for intelligent, capable people from the "wrong side of the tracks" in the dim, dark ages (ie, our youth). I think living through that miserable, transitional period in Australian history makes us better-appreciate what a transformation Gough's ALP wrought. |
You're depicting me as some right-wing extremist who's only interested in making money and doesn't give a stuff about anyone else around me. I feel offended by that.
In regards to tertiary education, I don't think a university course should be 100% subsidised by the taxpayer. I certain believe in a balance between people paying their way and the government subsidising the rest as it is currently. The introduction of HECS-help by the Hawke government was a fantastic way to ensure that the taxpayer did not carry the complete burden of paying for someone's university education and in the process for those who couldn't afford to pay their fees straight away in university. In May, when the budget was released people were upset about the deregulation of universities, but to say we would be become more like America was hysterical however. America doesn't have a HECS-based system and we do as opposed to them and I fully support this initiative that we have currently and I hope it's maintained for many years to come for current and future students. If the government scrapped HECS-help I'd be the first to oppose it without question. Currently, I support the fee structure as it stands for universities.
Regarding increased welfare, I certainly believe welfare should exist in society for those that actually need it. People with physical or mental issues who are incapable of working are eligible for government subsidisation to support them and rightly so. Same goes for the elderly because they fit the criteria of potentially not being able to work due to physical deficiencies which will naturally occur as someone gets older. However what I don't like is seeing people who are afforded the opportunities to hold down a full-time job but aren't willing to do so for whatever reason that may be and then they rely on government help to survive. That's my issue of welfare and that's where I hate it being exploited. I don't mind the notion of welfare, but I hate the exploitation of it.
Yes I'm studying Arts/Law at university but it doesn't mean that I'm not grateful for everything from the opportunities afforded to me to receive an education whether that's through taxpayers funding a certain percentage of my degree to the part of how hard I've worked over the last few years to just reach the position I'm in today. It's still a tough journey to go through but a very worthwhile one nevertheless.
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pietillidie
Joined: 07 Jan 2005
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^Jezza, you're clearly a diligent and sincere fella, so you don't have to defend yourself. You've also done great for yourself through your studies and your arguments and writing are going great guns, and deserve much more praise and support from us more progressive old farts. Pies4Shaw is probably testing you because you're chiming in with some strong assumptions, but haven't defended them yet on any serious grounds.
Here's what I would say to you: Often people repeat media-level debate arguments as if they mean something empirical/factual. But studying the debate (i.e., the social "discourse" surrounding a phenomenon), will not enable you to formulate anything but a public relations position on a topic. If that's your goal, no problem.
But to go beyond the claptrap you have to distinguish between constructing a position on a debate topic, and understanding an actual world phenomenon. To understand the phenomenon of health care or employment incentives requires you to deal with the technical, scientific, quantitative research on those phenomena (the field of behavioural economics is one of the best places to look these days).
I have said the same thing to your more progressive Nick's counterpart, David. Juggling words in your head about, say Iraq, doesn't mean you know anything about Iraq. In the same way, thinking you understand the psychiatry of incentives by taking a position on benefits based on public words is hopelessly self deceptive.
If you can't verify your claims in the real world based on a macro grasp (statistical checks) and a micro grasp (actual, lived experience and qualitative testing), then you're really just guessing. And if you're just guessing, why would you even support a particular view?
Most debate is throwaway rubbish; it's a fun sport, but recognise its limitations when it comes to pushing for things which impact other people's lives, often to the point of misery and/or death. We all crap on about stuff in the realm of opinion, myself no doubt chief among many on Nick's, but if you really push me on implementing something that affects people's lives, I will take a much more "medical duty of care" approach.
If I were you, I would start on the wealth gap; if you do the technical research I think you'll find it's the greatest statistical social wrecking ball on the planet.
_________________
In the end the rain comes down, washes clean the streets of a blue sky town.
Help Nick's: http://www.magpies.net/nick/bb/fundraising.htm |
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Tannin 
Can't remember
Joined: 06 Aug 2006
Location: Huon Valley Tasmania
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| Jezza wrote: |
You're depicting me as some right-wing extremist who's only interested in making money and doesn't give a stuff about anyone else around me. I feel offended by that. |
No. You depicted yourself as a right-wing extremist by posting right-wing extremist views earlier in the thread. You are backpeddling a bit now, and that's an improvement, but you can across as one of those extremists who want to destroy what's left of the generally fair and largely excellent education system Gough established way back in the 1970s, the education system which did more than most other things to help Australia become one of the richest, smartest, and happiest countries on Earth - yes, that same education system which has been battered and buggerised about by a succession of foolish short-term penny-pinching governments in recent decades but has nevertheless survived largely intact, yes, that same education system which makes our wealth and success possible, yes, that same education system which a handful of right-wing extremists like Pyne and Abbott and you want to destroy for no good reason and to the massive detriment of our country, our citizens, and above all our economy.
The economics of it are very clear and very simple: countries with good education systems which assist all interested citizens - rich or poor, male or female, black or white - to achieve their best are countries with thriving economies and bright futures. Countries which follow your advice and make education the preserve of the lucky few who happen to have chosen wealthy parents, those countries go backwards. They don't make the most of their single most precious resource - people - and their science falters, their engineering is second-rate, their teachers and doctors are inferior. Over time, these countries fail. A few plutocrats and their cronies get very rich, but the country as a whole gets left behind by smarter countries which go on getting smarter.
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Jezza
2023 PREMIERS!
Joined: 06 Sep 2010
Location: Ponsford End
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| Tannin wrote: | | Jezza wrote: |
You're depicting me as some right-wing extremist who's only interested in making money and doesn't give a stuff about anyone else around me. I feel offended by that. |
No. You depicted yourself as a right-wing extremist by posting right-wing extremist views earlier in the thread. You are backpeddling a bit now, and that's an improvement, but you can across as one of those extremists who want to destroy what's left of the generally fair and largely excellent education system Gough established way back in the 1970s, the education system which did more than most other things to help Australia become one of the richest, smartest, and happiest countries on Earth - yes, that same education system which has been battered and buggerised about by a succession of foolish short-term penny-pinching governments in recent decades but has nevertheless survived largely intact, yes, that same education system which makes our wealth and success possible, yes, that same education system which a handful of right-wing extremists like Pyne and Abbott and you want to destroy for no good reason and to the massive detriment of our country, our citizens, and above all our economy.
The economics of it are very clear and very simple: countries with good education systems which assist all interested citizens - rich or poor, male or female, black or white - to achieve their best are countries with thriving economies and bright futures. Countries which follow your advice and make education the preserve of the lucky few who happen to have chosen wealthy parents, those countries go backwards. They don't make the most of their single most precious resource - people - and their science falters, their engineering is second-rate, their teachers and doctors are inferior. Over time, these countries fail. A few plutocrats and their cronies get very rich, but the country as a whole gets left behind by smarter countries which go on getting smarter. |
Where did I say that universities should only be accessible to a select few who can afford to pay for it without government help?
I acknowledged that everyone should be able to attend university if they want to and I'm a big advocator of the HECS-help scheme introduced by the Hawke Government in the late 1980s that assists students who can't afford to pay their fees straight away until later down the track where they can afford to do so.
I don't see what is wrong with supporting a system that results in a contribution from both a taxpayer and for someone who pays their own way for their university education. Paul Keating summed up the HECS-help scheme very well in this speech he made in 1995 and the benefits that come with it that I've linked below.
http://pmtranscripts.dpmc.gov.au/transcripts/00009576.pdf
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