Free Universities.
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stui magpie 
Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.
Joined: 03 May 2005
Location: In flagrante delicto
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| think positive wrote: |
why is it not about how I feel? lets not forget, this is called the Tavern, where the opinions of bogans are just as acceptable as the office toff!
we are all equal when we come into this world, and we all go out the same way. dead.
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Viva la Bogan !!!!!!!!! 
{buuuurrrrrrrrrrrrp}
_________________
Every dead body on Mt Everest was once a highly motivated person, so maybe just calm the **** down. |
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watt price tully 
Joined: 15 May 2007
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| stui magpie wrote: | | think positive wrote: |
why is it not about how I feel? lets not forget, this is called the Tavern, where the opinions of bogans are just as acceptable as the office toff!
we are all equal when we come into this world, and we all go out the same way. dead.
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Viva la Bogan !!!!!!!!!
{buuuurrrrrrrrrrrrp} |
Are my taxes paying for you to comment while at work? Bloody public servants 
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“I even went as far as becoming a Southern Baptist until I realised they didn’t keep ‘em under long enough” Kinky Friedman |
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think positive 
Side By Side
Joined: 30 Jun 2005
Location: somewhere
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now theres a man can warm the cockles of a girls heart!!
but don't forget the fart!
oh wait, that's me!!
_________________
You cant fix stupid, turns out you cant quarantine it either! |
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Pies4shaw 
pies4shaw
Joined: 08 Oct 2007
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| watt price tully wrote: | So women are getting an education? WTF?
If we chose the Afghanistan model of education funding we could save heaps.
Then again if we chose the Afghani model of women in Cabinet in Federal Government we would need an increase of 300%. |
C'mon, WPT. How are they going to win on The Bachelor if they aren't properly finished? |
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David
I dare you to try
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda
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| Pies4shaw wrote: | TP, there's an interesting issue underlying that distinction about where the line should be drawn and why it should be drawn there. No one I know has ever had, or had any interest in, cosmetic surgery but I'm not sure why a person who is miserable about their nose simpliciter is less deserving of public support than someone who has a medical condition that, as a side issue, makes them miserable about their nose?
That same distinction seems to pervade the debate about what education "should" be publicly funded. Knowledge and understanding isn't any less important because it doesn't cure a disease. In fact, I take the view that the most support should be given to funding educational pursuits that don't have any directly apparent economic object, since the ones that do are typically supported by people and organizations that need to employ people who know about such things.
To take a trivial example: our market economy requires lawyers to perform certain functions and market participants will pay substantial sums of money to lawyers to perform those functions because the participants value them. The most lucrative area of practice is, of course, commercial law. But we don't just want our education system to be producing commercial lawyers. Indeed, we don't want the education system just to be producing lawyers with a trade certificate enabling them to practice. The most important role of public funding in such areas is to ensure that the less apparently "useful" pursuits are encouraged and supported. Thus, we need to educate people to understand and analyse the legal system and legal matters more generally, not merely to work within it. Of course, for the few of us who make squillions as commercial lawyers the cost of our "free" education is repaid through the tax system (at least for those of us who think we should pay tax). It's the other pursuits that don't necessarily lead to highly-paid outcomes - but are every bit as important - that need public support.
Thus, in my universe, I am as happy to fund people who study media or film or history (as an aside, what's wrong with the world that we consider the study of the past as some sort of optional extra?) as I am to fund engineeringy, sciencey, medical research sorts of things. Probably more so, since the latter group will always tend to find a funding source. |
That's a refreshing view, and one that I somehow suspect was at one point taken for granted. Seeing as the paradigm seems to be changing, what would you say is the primary value that art/arts courses bring to society? What is it that makes it more than just a means of self-improvement?
I have my own suspicions, but I'd like to hear someone else's perspective.
Oh, and Stui, I only ever studied economics at a Year 12 level, but it was enough for me to learn that national debt isn't necessarily a disaster. As I said, support for all levels of education is vital.
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All watched over by machines of loving grace |
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Pies4shaw
pies4shaw
Joined: 08 Oct 2007
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| ^^^^ The power to think critically and question the value of everything, as an end in itself. Our vision about the society we want and our critical evaluation of what we have and what we want comes from that, not from science (although at its best, science contributes significantly to the enquiry and our understanding) and certainly not from people who worry about whether the market is strong, weak, happy or sad. |
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HAL
Please don't shout at me - I can't help it.
Joined: 17 Mar 2003
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| It would be nice if our vision about the society we want and our critical evaluation of what we have and what we want comes from that not from science although at its best science contributes to the enquiry and our understanding and not from people who worry about whether the market is strong weak happy or sad. |
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stui magpie
Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.
Joined: 03 May 2005
Location: In flagrante delicto
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| David wrote: | | Pies4shaw wrote: | TP, there's an interesting issue underlying that distinction about where the line should be drawn and why it should be drawn there. No one I know has ever had, or had any interest in, cosmetic surgery but I'm not sure why a person who is miserable about their nose simpliciter is less deserving of public support than someone who has a medical condition that, as a side issue, makes them miserable about their nose?
That same distinction seems to pervade the debate about what education "should" be publicly funded. Knowledge and understanding isn't any less important because it doesn't cure a disease. In fact, I take the view that the most support should be given to funding educational pursuits that don't have any directly apparent economic object, since the ones that do are typically supported by people and organizations that need to employ people who know about such things.
To take a trivial example: our market economy requires lawyers to perform certain functions and market participants will pay substantial sums of money to lawyers to perform those functions because the participants value them. The most lucrative area of practice is, of course, commercial law. But we don't just want our education system to be producing commercial lawyers. Indeed, we don't want the education system just to be producing lawyers with a trade certificate enabling them to practice. The most important role of public funding in such areas is to ensure that the less apparently "useful" pursuits are encouraged and supported. Thus, we need to educate people to understand and analyse the legal system and legal matters more generally, not merely to work within it. Of course, for the few of us who make squillions as commercial lawyers the cost of our "free" education is repaid through the tax system (at least for those of us who think we should pay tax). It's the other pursuits that don't necessarily lead to highly-paid outcomes - but are every bit as important - that need public support.
Thus, in my universe, I am as happy to fund people who study media or film or history (as an aside, what's wrong with the world that we consider the study of the past as some sort of optional extra?) as I am to fund engineeringy, sciencey, medical research sorts of things. Probably more so, since the latter group will always tend to find a funding source. |
That's a refreshing view, and one that I somehow suspect was at one point taken for granted. Seeing as the paradigm seems to be changing, what would you say is the primary value that art/arts courses bring to society? What is it that makes it more than just a means of self-improvement?
I have my own suspicions, but I'd like to hear someone else's perspective.
Oh, and Stui, I only ever studied economics at a Year 12 level, but it was enough for me to learn that national debt isn't necessarily a disaster. As I said, support for all levels of education is vital. |
Yet the angle of your post was that if more people were tertiary educated blah blah. I'll give you the tip, the fact is a hell of a lot of people who voted Labor out DID know that national debt is not necessarily a disaster, and did it anyway. If you want to apply some of the critical thinking referred to below, then don't just follow the cant and believe that everyone who votes against labor/Greens is either uneducated, stupid or part of the authoritarian elite. Apply some thought to why people do it.
| Pies4shaw wrote: | | ^^^^ The power to think critically and question the value of everything, as an end in itself. Our vision about the society we want and our critical evaluation of what we have and what we want comes from that, not from science (although at its best, science contributes significantly to the enquiry and our understanding) and certainly not from people who worry about whether the market is strong, weak, happy or sad. |
Legitimate question, do you think that is still a benefit from courses offered today?
My observation is that very few people go to a university now as an end in itself, other than those delaying entering paid employment. (the ones who have to work part time while studying obviously don't fall into this category). The majority of people who study are doing it purely because the qualification they are studying is a requirement for the career they want. In many cases what people actually learn is bugger all except how to google information, copy and paste and reword it to pass assignments.
_________________
Every dead body on Mt Everest was once a highly motivated person, so maybe just calm the **** down. |
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Mugwump
Joined: 28 Jul 2007
Location: Between London and Melbourne
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^ Good post Stui - I agree. I didn't vote for Abbott, but I'm uncomfortable with the idea that everyone who did simply lacked the education in economics to think properly about the economic promises the Libs made.
As Australia now enters the downturn phase of the cycle and the Chinese property ponzi scheme (and its Australian equivalent) starts to wobble, i think we'd be far better off if a significant surplus had been built under the successive Labour governments. This would have required a clearer vision of what government can and should do for their citizens, and what citizens can and should do for themselves. Lest that sound partisan, I was also deeply unimpressed by the way the Howard government exploited the mining and consumer boom while abstaining from any real vision of how to build a "mining-plus-other-things" economy
If a surplus had been built in the days of plenty, a proper Keynesian response could have been available to the government if (when?) a serious crisis ensues. The world is awash in debt of all kinds, and today's ordinary kids are the ones who will pay the greatest price for this. Tertiary education has expanded greatly, but i don't think we've seen a large increase in the quality of economic thinking in political debate - if anything it has worsened.
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Two more flags before I die!
Last edited by Mugwump on Fri Oct 03, 2014 1:37 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Morrigu 
Joined: 11 Aug 2001
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| David wrote: | | All I'm saying is, be wary of voting according to single issue |
Last Sat morn I was pottering around doing the washing the housework all those boring things that have to be done and the doorbell rang
So off to the door - there stands 2 young men in bright blue Liberal tee shirts canvassing residents to ascertain their " concerns" - what the hell I'll play along
So after 5 minutes of being told what a wonderful job the current Vic Government are doing with health couldn't keep a straight face any longer and let them know that indeed was not the case - oh says one you have had poor treatment - no you dipstick I work in the public health system!
Anyway I'm rambling - but it turns out the number one concerns of residents in the area was the lack of a pedestrian crossing across the major road to get to the local shopping centre!
The people who live in my area are not " uneducated" - a lot of academics, a lot of engineers, a lot of aircraft maintenance and engineers many now retired, a lot of tradies and a lot of health professionals but neither are they particularly young.
See David that's the thing - the people have heard so much crap for so long they don't believe anymore and they expect little of their politicians and know they will say well just about anything and then have a change of heart and blame the " previous government" - maybe that is why we have what we have?
Electoral jaundice MUCH!
I vote for what is important to me as most people do!
And Hitler was WAY too short for me 
_________________
“The greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the way its animals are treated.” |
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Mugwump
Joined: 28 Jul 2007
Location: Between London and Melbourne
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| Morrigu wrote: | | David wrote: | | All I'm saying is, be wary of voting according to single issue |
Last Sat morn I was pottering around doing the washing the housework all those boring things that have to be done and the doorbell rang
So off to the door - there stands 2 young men in bright blue Liberal tee shirts canvassing residents to ascertain their " concerns" - what the hell I'll play along
So after 5 minutes of being told what a wonderful job the current Vic Government are doing with health couldn't keep a straight face any longer and let them know that indeed was not the case - oh says one you have had poor treatment - no you dipstick I work in the public health system!
Anyway I'm rambling - but it turns out the number one concerns of residents in the area was the lack of a pedestrian crossing across the major road to get to the local shopping centre!
The people who live in my area are not " uneducated" - a lot of academics, a lot of engineers, a lot of aircraft maintenance and engineers many now retired, a lot of tradies and a lot of health professionals but neither are they particularly young.
See David that's the thing - the people have heard so much crap for so long they don't believe anymore and they expect little of their politicians and know they will say well just about anything and then have a change of heart and blame the " previous government" - maybe that is why we have what we have?
Electoral jaundice MUCH!
I vote for what is important to me as most people do!
And Hitler was WAY too short for me |
Actually i think we're relatively lucky to have the politicians that we do. It's an appalling job with levels of scrutiny and accountability and working hours that would make most of us wince, and a ravenous media that twists and angles every line. It's also an, ahem, highly political workplace of a kind that few of us would want to work in. Yet we expect this toxic cocktail to fix almost every imperfection and hardship we encounter in modern life.
While some go into it because they're power nuts, many people do so because they genuinely believe that good government is the absolute starting place for a good society, and the absurd media game is simply a price that must be paid.
In Australia we are amazingly lucky to have the institutions and the relatively uncorrupt public life that we have, and if we get too cynical about it, then there's a chance it will fall to meet our cynicism. There is much to criticise, but the core of what we have is vital and important amd relatively benign, by world standards. I think we should celebrate that a little more, if we want it to improve.
_________________
Two more flags before I die! |
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Pies4shaw
pies4shaw
Joined: 08 Oct 2007
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| stui magpie wrote: | | Pies4shaw wrote: | | ^^^^ The power to think critically and question the value of everything, as an end in itself. Our vision about the society we want and our critical evaluation of what we have and what we want comes from that, not from science (although at its best, science contributes significantly to the enquiry and our understanding) and certainly not from people who worry about whether the market is strong, weak, happy or sad. |
Legitimate question, do you think that is still a benefit from courses offered today?
My observation is that very few people go to a university now as an end in itself, other than those delaying entering paid employment. (the ones who have to work part time while studying obviously don't fall into this category). The majority of people who study are doing it purely because the qualification they are studying is a requirement for the career they want. In many cases what people actually learn is bugger all except how to google information, copy and paste and reword it to pass assignments. |
Well, yes, of course. But one needs to distinguish between the glorified trade certificates (eg, the core parts of law, medicine, computer science, commerce etc degree curricula) and the activities that enable and encourage critical thinking.
The question of why people go is, I think, irrelevant - the issue is whether you encourage them to think intelligently, carefully and critically about the world while they're there. One of the truly tragic consequences of making people pay for their tertiary education is that they become consumers of it and only want to be given the bits that they think will enable them to maximise their incomes. Law students, for example, have always tended to be lukewarm, on the whole, about being taught ethics and jurisprudence (that is, reflective, critical legal theory, rather than the positivistic skills required to defeat an opponent in a contract dispute) but I think society is improved by producing people who think about what they do and why they do it - and what they should do - rather than people who are merely technocratic functionaries.
I make my living as a technocratic functionary. That doesn't mean that my particular function should be all that I know about or understand - and I'm reasonably confident it isn't.
I should, perhaps unhelpfully, add that I could give you a vast array of day to day examples about why that is critically important for the proper performance of the work I do - but I can't because the professional obligations of confidentiality that bind me preclude me from doing so. Hence, I am compelled to speak at a level of generality that doesn't really aid the argument. |
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David
I dare you to try
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda
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| Mugwump wrote: | | ^ Good post Stui - I agree. I didn't vote for Abbott, but I'm uncomfortable with the idea that everyone who did simply lacked the education in economics to think properly about the economic promises the Libs made. |
Oh, I don't think that for a moment. As I wrote (and perhaps could have made even more explicit:
| David wrote: | | I'm not saying that such people contributed the total Liberal vote at the last election. But there were certainly quite a few of them, and we know that because it's how those issues were pitched: three-word slogans; alarmist language; complete lack of any meaningful policy agenda. And it worked, spectacularly. |
I don't actually think the average Liberal voter is necessarily less educated than the average Labor voter. Even the Greens probably have to count on a sizable proportion of young PETA types to succeed electorally. The point is that there are enough uneducated voters for tactics like those used in the last election to succeed, and that's a problem.
_________________
All watched over by machines of loving grace |
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think positive
Side By Side
Joined: 30 Jun 2005
Location: somewhere
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What load of crap
A lot of voters got sucked in by lies this government has not lived up too
Even so, just split society, plenty of dumb buggers in every sector, plenty who know a lot about one thing and not much about anything else
Then there is the family voter, ie " because me dad does!"
Fancy thinking you can judge people like the above!
Gees I guess we could all just say it was written in the stars since there is no such thing as free will!!!
_________________
You cant fix stupid, turns out you cant quarantine it either! |
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stui magpie
Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.
Joined: 03 May 2005
Location: In flagrante delicto
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| David wrote: | | Mugwump wrote: | | ^ Good post Stui - I agree. I didn't vote for Abbott, but I'm uncomfortable with the idea that everyone who did simply lacked the education in economics to think properly about the economic promises the Libs made. |
Oh, I don't think that for a moment. As I wrote (and perhaps could have made even more explicit:
| David wrote: | | I'm not saying that such people contributed the total Liberal vote at the last election. But there were certainly quite a few of them, and we know that because it's how those issues were pitched: three-word slogans; alarmist language; complete lack of any meaningful policy agenda. And it worked, spectacularly. |
I don't actually think the average Liberal voter is necessarily less educated than the average Labor voter. Even the Greens probably have to count on a sizable proportion of young PETA types to succeed electorally. The point is that there are enough uneducated voters for tactics like those used in the last election to succeed, and that's a problem. |
Only in the last election? You're contradicting yourself, again.On one hand you say it wasn't the dummies who got the Libs up, and then you say it was. That comes across as stereotypical left winger sour grapes, playing the intellectual superiority card
If that's not what you meant, consider this part of your education in writing for comprehension. (A trick I've used a number of times when coaching someone in how to write a paper for an audience unfamiliar with the topic is, realise your audience isn't psychic-they can't read your mind, they haven't lived in your skin, they don't know what you know. You need to explain it to them like you were explaining it to your drunk uncle at a family BBQ. Minimise jargon and acronyms and assume no prior knowledge at all. Never over estimate the intelligence of your audience)
In practice, when you look at the votes and actual swings, governments change hands on less than 10% of the populations opinion.
_________________
Every dead body on Mt Everest was once a highly motivated person, so maybe just calm the **** down. |
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