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John Wren
"Look after the game. It means so much to so many."
Joined: 15 Jul 2007
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David wrote: | Admittedly, before we start writing Hardwick's epitaph, he did get them into the finals for about the first time in a thousand years in 2013. They seem to be going backwards this year, but you don't sack a coach over one bad season. Well, you do if you're Richmond. |
remember 2007, how we got to the prelim, then went backwards the next year? _________________ Purveyor of sanctimonious twaddle. |
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David
I dare you to try
Joined: 27 Jul 2003 Location: Andromeda
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Haha, God help me!
Of course, then too people were falling for the simple fallacy that a team's ladder position is somehow a direct reflection of a coach's quality. As if there are no other factors at play.
Rexy17 wrote: | might just put my money on Hird as the first to go after tonites news |
Put your house on it. Though, he's already gone as far as I'm concerned. _________________ All watched over by machines of loving grace |
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Flashman
Joined: 11 Aug 2007
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John Wren wrote: | David wrote: | Admittedly, before we start writing Hardwick's epitaph, he did get them into the finals for about the first time in a thousand years in 2013. They seem to be going backwards this year, but you don't sack a coach over one bad season. Well, you do if you're Richmond. |
remember 2007, how we got to the prelim, then went backwards the next year? |
We finished 2007 13-9 and 2008 12-10. We won two finals and nearly squeaked a third in 2007 and won a final in 2008 (that's with the knuckleheaded Shaw and Didak suspensions to cope with). There wasn't much between the sides in reality. |
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ANNODAM
Rebel Heart Tour - The Forum, Los Angeles 27/10/2015.
Joined: 02 Jul 2007 Location: Eltham, VIC.
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Can I add Jimmy Turd? _________________ WE WERE ROBBED, RIGHT IN FRONT OF ME, RIGHT IN FRONT OF MEEE!
N.Y METS, N.Y GIANTS, PENRITH PANTHERS & HOBART HURRICANES FAN.
WE ALL LOOK GOOD AT TRAINING, IT'S THE MATCHES THAT COUNT! |
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yin-YANG
Joined: 03 Oct 2011
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Hardwick to go first because he raised expectations last year and this year with talk of top 4... the team will try and fail over the next few weeks and he will be sacked because he can't get the club to take that next step! (as if anyone could) _________________ Love us or Hate us... we are Collingwood - you can't ignore the Mighty Magpies!!! |
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Big T
Joined: 18 Oct 2003 Location: Torino, Italy
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Malt house looks worse every week if u ask me, due to their horrible list, aging stars and bleak outlook. May as well start again with a young coach, cos they won't be contenders for at least 5 years. _________________ Buon Giorno |
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John Wren
"Look after the game. It means so much to so many."
Joined: 15 Jul 2007
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Flashman wrote: | John Wren wrote: | David wrote: | Admittedly, before we start writing Hardwick's epitaph, he did get them into the finals for about the first time in a thousand years in 2013. They seem to be going backwards this year, but you don't sack a coach over one bad season. Well, you do if you're Richmond. |
remember 2007, how we got to the prelim, then went backwards the next year? |
We finished 2007 13-9 and 2008 12-10. We won two finals and nearly squeaked a third in 2007 and won a final in 2008 (that's with the knuckleheaded Shaw and Didak suspensions to cope with). There wasn't much between the sides in reality. |
it may have been 2009 i was thinking of. there was a period where we copped a few hidings, iirc. _________________ Purveyor of sanctimonious twaddle. |
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Mossi
Joined: 20 May 2002 Location: Vittorio Veneto TV Italy
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If we give those blues another hiding in two weeks time (in their 150th). It could just tip MM over the edge!!! We must make sure we beat the blues in what will be their Grand Final in 2014 |
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AN_Inkling
Joined: 06 Oct 2007
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Flashman wrote: | John Wren wrote: | David wrote: | Admittedly, before we start writing Hardwick's epitaph, he did get them into the finals for about the first time in a thousand years in 2013. They seem to be going backwards this year, but you don't sack a coach over one bad season. Well, you do if you're Richmond. |
remember 2007, how we got to the prelim, then went backwards the next year? |
We finished 2007 13-9 and 2008 12-10. We won two finals and nearly squeaked a third in 2007 and won a final in 2008 (that's with the knuckleheaded Shaw and Didak suspensions to cope with). There wasn't much between the sides in reality. |
Yeah, I think Dave and John's point was that even that slight perceived slide back sparked mass hysteria on these boards.
Not sure it's relevant when talking about Richmond. They have slipped much further, and such a slide is just cause for a coach's sacking in my eyes. Only thing that might save him is that he's contracted for 2015. _________________ Well done boys! |
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AN_Inkling
Joined: 06 Oct 2007
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John Wren wrote: | Flashman wrote: | John Wren wrote: | David wrote: | Admittedly, before we start writing Hardwick's epitaph, he did get them into the finals for about the first time in a thousand years in 2013. They seem to be going backwards this year, but you don't sack a coach over one bad season. Well, you do if you're Richmond. |
remember 2007, how we got to the prelim, then went backwards the next year? |
We finished 2007 13-9 and 2008 12-10. We won two finals and nearly squeaked a third in 2007 and won a final in 2008 (that's with the knuckleheaded Shaw and Didak suspensions to cope with). There wasn't much between the sides in reality. |
it may have been 2009 i was thinking of. there was a period where we copped a few hidings, iirc. |
Finished 4th and made the prelim in 2009, but were belted 120-47 by the Cats. _________________ Well done boys! |
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EBB
Joined: 26 Apr 2007
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Wonder what year Mr Wren will come up with next _________________ understanding stuff, with endeavour to overstand.. |
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Flashman
Joined: 11 Aug 2007
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John Wren wrote: | Flashman wrote: | John Wren wrote: | David wrote: | Admittedly, before we start writing Hardwick's epitaph, he did get them into the finals for about the first time in a thousand years in 2013. They seem to be going backwards this year, but you don't sack a coach over one bad season. Well, you do if you're Richmond. |
remember 2007, how we got to the prelim, then went backwards the next year? |
We finished 2007 13-9 and 2008 12-10. We won two finals and nearly squeaked a third in 2007 and won a final in 2008 (that's with the knuckleheaded Shaw and Didak suspensions to cope with). There wasn't much between the sides in reality. |
it may have been 2009 i was thinking of. there was a period where we copped a few hidings, iirc. |
You might be right actually. I think Hawthorn flogged us twice that year and Carlton posted two easy wins over us (which always hurts) as well. And from memory Essendon belted us the second time we met too.
We were a work in progress building towards 2009-11. |
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David
I dare you to try
Joined: 27 Jul 2003 Location: Andromeda
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Flashman wrote: | We were a work in progress building towards 2009-11. |
Which is easy to see in hindsight but hard at the time when the majority seem to be calling for the coach's head because he hasn't "delivered" a flag in 9 years or has a 50:50 win–loss ratio.
The biggest problem I have with the current paradigm is how poorly considered a lot of decisions to sack coaches are. I agree with Inkling that Hardwick seems like a textbook case for sacking this year—no major success for a long period of time; a big drop down the ladder—but can we quantify how much rests on the failings of the senior coach? What about the playing group? Injuries? Confidence? Assistant coaches? Fitness staff? Standard of the rest of the competition? All these factors and more can affect win–loss ratios and ladder positions.
Is it at least theoretically possible that Hardwick has coached just as well this year as last year? Is it theoretically possible that he could coach in the same manner again next year and they could make the top 4? If he has identifiable deficiencies, can they be addressed and resolved? Given that experience is one of the best possible qualities a coach can have, is there a demonstrably better replacement on the market? These are calls for management to make, but given the speed with which coaches are dispensed with I'm guessing that they rarely make those decisions in a clear-eyed manner. Often it just seems to be media and supporter pressure that prompts these decisions, and beyond dumb stats most of that can only ever be ill-informed conjecture. _________________ All watched over by machines of loving grace |
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AN_Inkling
Joined: 06 Oct 2007
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David wrote: |
The biggest problem I have with the current paradigm is how poorly considered a lot of decisions to sack coaches are. I agree with Inkling that Hardwick seems like a textbook case for sacking this year—no major success for a long period of time; a big drop down the ladder—but can we quantify how much rests on the failings of the senior coach? What about the playing group? Injuries? Confidence? Assistant coaches? Fitness staff? Standard of the rest of the competition? All these factors and more can affect win–loss ratios and ladder positions.
Is it at least theoretically possible that Hardwick has coached just as well this year as last year? Is it theoretically possible that he could coach in the same manner again next year and they could make the top 4? If he has identifiable deficiencies, can they be addressed and resolved? Given that experience is one of the best possible qualities a coach can have, is there a demonstrably better replacement on the market? These are calls for management to make, but given the speed with which coaches are dispensed with I'm guessing that they rarely make those decisions in a clear-eyed manner. Often it just seems to be media and supporter pressure that prompts these decisions, and beyond dumb stats most of that can only ever be ill-informed conjecture. |
There is no doubt some truth in what you say, and we have seen clubs stick with a coach through some difficult times and later be rewarded with success. However, sport is always result driven, and much of what you list above is seen as being under the coach's control.
And consider that any decision made on a coach needs to be justified to supporters and board members, and yes, even the media. A strong club can just keep saying "we're on the right path, things will turn" but a weaker club might not be able to withstand a constant media barrage and supporter disaffection, it could have real financial implications. A more nuanced multi-factor argument is much harder to sell than, let's bring in a new coach.
On Hardwick: Richmond are obviously confident they have the right man, having re-signed him for two years at the start of the season, so maybe they will stick with him. On the results though, and it's really all we can judge a coach on from the outside, this season has been a major disappointment and there are no obvious external reasons for it. No terrible run with injuries, no difficult off-field issues, no significant retirements.
So, while I do agree with you that linking results directly to a coach's performance is a crude metric, it's all that we as outsiders have and the same mostly goes for the media. Within a club you would like to think that they are taking a more holistic view, but there are certainly times where they simply crack under external pressure. _________________ Well done boys! |
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