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GreekLunatic
Joined: 22 Feb 2003 Location: doncaster vic australia
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are they sure this time |
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Tannin
Can't remember
Joined: 06 Aug 2006 Location: Huon Valley Tasmania
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woodisgood wrote: | It is a pretty big plane. Wingspan and length both over 60 metres. If that piece is from MH370 though, and on that I'm sceptical, it pretty much rules out an explosion or very high G impact. Thats a seriously large piece. |
Umm ... no, it rules those things in. An aircraft making contact with the water in a controlled way doesn't normally break up into bits, it remains largely intact and typically floats for a while before sinking in one piece.
So, assuming that the large piece of floating wreckage is indeed from the 777 (which is opoen to doubt, but let's assume it for now), it demonstrates that the aircraft either broke up in mid-air or (more likely) impacted the water in an uncontrolled way with sufficient force to break up its (lightweight but very strong) structure. _________________ �Let's eat Grandma.� Commas save lives! |
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woodisgood
Joined: 30 May 2007 Location: Prahran
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Tannin wrote: | woodisgood wrote: | It is a pretty big plane. Wingspan and length both over 60 metres. If that piece is from MH370 though, and on that I'm sceptical, it pretty much rules out an explosion or very high G impact. Thats a seriously large piece. |
Umm ... no, it rules those things in. An aircraft making contact with the water in a controlled way doesn't normally break up into bits, it remains largely intact and typically floats for a while before sinking in one piece.
So, assuming that the large piece of floating wreckage is indeed from the 777 (which is opoen to doubt, but let's assume it for now), it demonstrates that the aircraft either broke up in mid-air or (more likely) impacted the water in an uncontrolled way with sufficient force to break up its (lightweight but very strong) structure. |
Absolutely incorrect.
No mid air breakup or mid air explosion or high speed impact has ever generated a single piece of wreckage that large. If you look at hgh speed impacts with water, Air France 447 for example didnt yield a single piece larger than the vertical stabilizer, Egypt Air 990 barely anything larger than a metre other than the veritcal stabilizer, Alaskan 261 the largest piece was a 2 metre section of empennage.
If you look at midair breakups, fires or explosions such as Pan Am 103, Air India 102, Swissair 111, China Air 611 for example they led to widely dispersed debris fields of generally small pieces. The half cockpit section of Pan Am 103 is the biggest bit amongst that group, and it was substantially smaller than this sighting.
The only accidents genrating pieces this large are low speed impacts with terrain (which have been exclusively limited so far to incidents on takeoff or landing, generally involving low altitude low speed stalls) or controlled ditchings.
The Hudson miracle is the exception to the rule, and note it was ditched immediately after takeoff, from low altitude, and into calm river water. The Tupolev in 1963 was similarly in a river.
If you limit yourself to controlled (or partially controlled) ditchings from cruise into ocean , such as Tuninter flight 1153, Ethiopian flight 961, both broke up into sizable pieces similar to those found in the crash (on land) of Turkish flight 1951. Both were in much calmer water than anything in the deep Indian Ocean (med and near land respectively)
If this piece is found to be part of the plane, it would basically show some level of control at least of glide after loss of engine power. I have asked 777 pilots about that and if its possible without pilot input, and they are sceptical Loss of power in this situation should disconnect A/P and remove AoA protection. Plus, loss of thrust is unlikely to be symmetrical, so one engine still operating would tend to induce a spiral dive, which is how Helios 552 impacted. Thats unlikley to lead to big pieces either. _________________ "Courage is what it takes to stand up and speak; courage is also what it takes to sit down and listen. "
Winston Churchill |
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Tannin
Can't remember
Joined: 06 Aug 2006 Location: Huon Valley Tasmania
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Nice try: the fact remains that controlled impacts with water generally leave aircraft intact. This has been so for more than 100 years. Are you suggesting that this has suddenly changed?
An uncontrolled impact, of course, is a different matter . _________________ �Let's eat Grandma.� Commas save lives! |
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watt price tully
Joined: 15 May 2007
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With all the speculation of terrorism, malfunction, pilot gone nuts, etc a fascinating story about the only pilot who foiled an armed skyjacking & saved his passengers:
At 29,000 feet, with the plane still climbing, the emergency light flashed in the cockpit. False alarm, one of the crew members said. It happened often. Flight attendants sometimes grazed against the warning panels, sounding the alarm. No, Bar-Lev responded, were being hijacked.
Seconds later a flight attendants voice came through the intercom: two people, armed with a gun and two grenades, wanted to enter the cockpit. If he didnt open the door, they would blow up the plane.
http://www.timesofisrael.com/how-to-defeat-airplane-terrorists-from-the-only-pilot-who-ever-foiled-a-skyjacking/ _________________ “I even went as far as becoming a Southern Baptist until I realised they didn’t keep ‘em under long enough” Kinky Friedman |
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woodisgood
Joined: 30 May 2007 Location: Prahran
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Tannin wrote: | Nice try: the fact remains that controlled impacts with water generally leave aircraft intact. This has been so for more than 100 years. Are you suggesting that this has suddenly changed?
An uncontrolled impact, of course, is a different matter . |
Like air Tuninter
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tuninter_Flight_1153
or
Ethiopian 961
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethiopian_Airlines_Flight_961
or
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laoag_International_Airlines_Flight_585
Open Ocean ditchings mostly dont, and even then only when close to shore or involving small aircraft.
I could only find one modern (ish) aircraft surviving aparently intact
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ALM_Flight_980
Size and weight, coupled with ocean swells is the killer. Modern, large RPT airliners are very unlikely to survive a controlled ditching in the conditions present in the Indian Ocean. Old Super Connies were a lot more robust, unfortunately. We are talking fundamentally different ocean conditions though to any remotely successful ditching
The 777 is one of the ones I would give the most chance to, it is stronger than most, but we are talking two fifths of bugger all even then. _________________ "Courage is what it takes to stand up and speak; courage is also what it takes to sit down and listen. "
Winston Churchill |
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Tannin
Can't remember
Joined: 06 Aug 2006 Location: Huon Valley Tasmania
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^ That's quality posting. Colour me persuaded. _________________ �Let's eat Grandma.� Commas save lives! |
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Jezza
2023 PREMIERS!
Joined: 06 Sep 2010 Location: Ponsford End
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Very sad outcome for everyone on the plane but it does sound like that one of the pilot is being investigated and many are wondering who he was talking to in his last phone call five minutes before the flight. That call may give us an idea of what transpired on the fight after the plane took off from Kuala Lumpur. _________________ | 1902 | 1903 | 1910 | 1917 | 1919 | 1927 | 1928 | 1929 | 1930 | 1935 | 1936 | 1953 | 1958 | 1990 | 2010 | 2023 | |
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think positive
Side By Side
Joined: 30 Jun 2005 Location: somewhere
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Have they found it yet?
Did they ask that little fella from the island _________________ You cant fix stupid, turns out you cant quarantine it either! |
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Tannin
Can't remember
Joined: 06 Aug 2006 Location: Huon Valley Tasmania
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Just when you thought it was safe to get back into the water department ....
Dr Recalcitrant himself, the former Malaysian PM Dr Mahathir, who was so famously and so justly insulted by Paul Keating all those years ago, has announced that "The loss of the plane is due to the makers, Boeing."
Dr Recalcitrant? Perhaps he should now be known as Dr Ignorant. What a tool. _________________ �Let's eat Grandma.� Commas save lives! |
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Morrigu
Joined: 11 Aug 2001
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MH370 not in Indian Ocean search zone: ATSB
The missing Malaysia Airlines plane is not in the Indian Ocean search zone where acoustic "pings" were detected, search co-ordinators have confirmed.
MH370 went missing on March 8 about one hour into a night flight from Kuala Lumpur to Beijing.
"The Australian Transport Safety Bureau [ATSB] has advised that the search in the vicinity of the acoustic detections can now be considered complete and, in its professional judgment, the area can now be discounted as the final resting place of MH370," the Joint Agency Co-ordination Centre said on Thursday.
The co-ordination centre announced on April 7 that a pinger locator towed from the Australian navy vessel Ocean Shield had picked up two acoustic signals, with one held for more than two hours.
At the time, it described the signals as consistent with flight data or cockpit voice recorders, the most promising lead yet and likely from a man-made source.
Two days later, two more signals were detected, holding for about five and seven minutes.
The JACC's statement on Thursday came hours after reports that the search had gone back to square one, citing US Navy deputy director of ocean engineering Michael Dean as saying the pings came from some other man-made source unrelated to MH370.
''Our best theory at this point is that [the pings were] likely some sound produced by the ship ... or within the electronics of the Towed Pinger Locator,'' he said.
JACC has also confirmed the end of the Bluefin-21 mission, with the underwater drone detecting no signs of aircraft debris since it began scanning the sea floor off the West Australian coast on April 14.
The Bluefin-21 has scoured more than 850 square kilometres of the ocean floor looking for signs of the missing aircraft, but has been constrained by depth operating limits and technical hitches.
Having earlier narrowed down the search area based on the pings, JACC is now casting its net much wider, saying it continues to review all existing radar, satellite and aircraft performance data to define a search zone of up to 60,000 square kilometres in the southern Indian Ocean.
That zone still follows an arc defined by British company Inmarsat based on the final "handshakes" between the Boeing 777 and satellites.
http://www.theage.com.au/national/mh370-not-in-indian-ocean-search-zone-atsb-20140529-396ml.html
Wonder if they will ever find it........ _________________ “The greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the way its animals are treated.” |
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stui magpie
Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.
Joined: 03 May 2005 Location: In flagrante delicto
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New theory. Flight MH370 was detoured to Africa to pick up a party of 300 Nigerian schoolgirls and fly them to Themyscira. _________________ Every dead body on Mt Everest was once a highly motivated person, so maybe just calm the **** down. |
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Skids
Quitting drinking will be one of the best choices you make in your life.
Joined: 11 Sep 2007 Location: Joined 3/6/02 . Member #175
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It's not far from here, 160k's north of Meekatharra. They're filming a reality show called "Lost" will be screened after the AFL season finishes. _________________ Don't count the days, make the days count. |
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Pies4shaw
pies4shaw
Joined: 08 Oct 2007
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HAL
Please don't shout at me - I can't help it.
Joined: 17 Mar 2003
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Suppose they do. |
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