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Culprit Cancer



Joined: 06 Feb 2003
Location: Port Melbourne

PostPosted: Mon Apr 15, 2024 8:32 am
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stui magpie wrote:
2 security guards were killed, 1 male 1 female and yes, the male was a Pakistani refugee.
Brave souls and very sad and maybe the security industry will get a massive overhaul but I doubt it as that would cost businesses money.
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Skids Cancer

Quitting drinking will be one of the best choices you make in your life.


Joined: 11 Sep 2007
Location: Joined 3/6/02 . Member #175

PostPosted: Mon Apr 15, 2024 9:56 am
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David wrote:
Institutionalisation seems to be beside the point. Someone who’s homeless needs a proper place to sleep and live first and foremost. There should be enough beds and houses out there for destitute people. Then there ought to be support workers regularly checking in and providing care for the people who require it, like those with mental illness or suffering from drug addiction. Say, once a week, bring the checklist out with all the known homeless people in the area: where’s Joel, does he have enough food, is he in a bad headspace, etc. And if he’s back on the streets, find him and spend some time with him to figure out what’s going on. I don’t care how much it costs; something like this should be the basic minimum standard expected for anyone in society.

We talk about people falling through cracks, but the cracks are more like gaping chasms. That’s the problem here, not that we stopped forcibly locking up those with mental illnesses.


Bringing over half a million people into the country every year, when we already have; housing shortages, health funding shortages and falling water resources is always going to be a massive challenge.
Just wait until Iron Ore is back around $60/tonne.

You might not care how much it costs, but you can't have champagne on a beer budget.

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David Libra

to wish impossible things


Joined: 27 Jul 2003
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 15, 2024 10:04 am
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What I’m describing is beer. Champagne is tax cuts and breaks for upper income earners.

Of course, many people will shrug off random tragedies like this " and, indeed, the entire homeless situation " as a small price to pay for preserving the current order of things. But I’d rather live in a society where we look out for those who have nothing and no-one. For me, that’s the difference between a community and a dog-eat-dog world of individuals trying to get ahead.

pietillidie wrote:
pietillidie wrote:
It's a horrible thought to think how unlucky life can be. Just mosying through a shopping mall. I think my wife said one poor sod was a refugee; imagine surviving whatever to be that unlucky you bump into this in Australia of all places. That said, you do wonder how on earth this was not picked up by security quick smart. They catch teens stealing makeup and miss a dishevelled lunatic with a giant knife.

Did I hear right, that the security bloke who was killed was the refugee to which I refer? I can't be bothered delving into it because it's too depressing, but either way major public places need proper security for these cases and armed robbery. There can't be just one person on security, surely. You can expect a good handful of dangerous incidents a year, even if not in this league. Anyone know what the story was from a security POV?


I work at an organisation with a decent-sized security team and they’re totally ill-equipped to deal with anything like this. I assume most security guards in shopping centres and the like are too. It’s not their fault, just the inherent limitations and parameters of the role. Any training would be around organising evacuation of customers and then abandoning ship, but even in a well-run situation that’s going to be chaotic.

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Culprit Cancer



Joined: 06 Feb 2003
Location: Port Melbourne

PostPosted: Mon Apr 15, 2024 12:16 pm
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^^I work in Defence facilities where Wilson Security is the main Security firm. Do I feel safe? Not with them as I can outrun most of them.

"It only takes 18 days to complete the course, which means you'll be qualified in no time. Once you've completed the course and applied for your security license, you'll be ready to begin applying for work as a security guard in a variety of settings around Australia.
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stui magpie Gemini

Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.


Joined: 03 May 2005
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 15, 2024 1:54 pm
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Geez there's some knee jerk reactions here.

This guy didn't do this because he was homeless, he was able to buy a feed only hours before the attack so he wasn't starving. He was mentally ill and off his meds and something triggered him.

Closing the big psych institutions like Mont Park was in line with best practice in treating mental health. Treat them in the community. (That the community facilities are stretched to say the least is not the point, that's a different discussion) They still have Psych inpatient units where people can be involuntarily admitted and assessed, but in Victoria at least between the Mental Health Act and the Human Rights Charter it's difficult to hold someone and/or medicate them against their will (as it should be) unless they're assessed as a danger to themselves or others. This bloke was never assessed as either, he was not considered a risk.

Psychiatry, Psychology and medication have come a long way since the 1960's and earlier where they weren't able to treat conditions that they now can. Back then, if Aunt Mabel was a little off, just pack her off to the loony bin, out of sight, out of mind where she can't be an embarrassment to polite society.

Really bad bastards can still be locked up in the Psych faclity in Fairfield.

And yeah, concur with the above assessments of Security, most just aren't equipped to deal with a real confrontation let alone an armed lunatic.

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Culprit Cancer



Joined: 06 Feb 2003
Location: Port Melbourne

PostPosted: Mon Apr 15, 2024 2:55 pm
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^^I agree Stui. I read he had a meal and couldn't pay and then came back later and paid for the meal and then went killing. So many questions and we will never know.
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pietillidie 



Joined: 07 Jan 2005


PostPosted: Mon Apr 15, 2024 6:03 pm
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Culprit wrote:
^^I work in Defence facilities where Wilson Security is the main Security firm. Do I feel safe? Not with them as I can outrun most of them.

"It only takes 18 days to complete the course, which means you'll be qualified in no time. Once you've completed the course and applied for your security license, you'll be ready to begin applying for work as a security guard in a variety of settings around Australia.

To underscore the point, even I got a security licence for a uni job! However, it was for a nursing home and was more about being on call if nurses needed a hand, which was an awesome uni job. Actually, I also thought it was a great course. One thing I do remember is that in the course there were others for whom it was the first leg of a more serious course involving the carrying of guns, maybe for banks, Armaguard or somethinglike that. They were training to be proper security. But that was way back in the early 90s.

I sense from your answer you are thinking more along the lines of why I asked the question. David, I wasn't blaming the poor security victims. I was more getting at the spend, training and seriousness of anything being adequate when it comes to managing risk, and wondering if they were left exposed by upper management.

Westfield Bondi Junction is presumably no Wheelers Hill arcade where I grew up with a few pensioners and stay-at-home mums wandering through. So, That would make them victims in two senses, i.e., literally of the killer, and organisationally because they were mismanaged and used to check box legal requirements rather than be part of a properly organised team.

There's absolutely nothing wrong with mixing workers of different levels; that's necessary and normal. But where was the CCTV monitoring? The smart scanning technology which can easily detect disturbances using pattern detection and then alert people? The senior badass at Culprit's level of expertise you call when a fight breaks out? Maybe that's just me being naive of these things.

Imagine if the heroic cop wasn't nearby? And wasn't she only nearby perchance?

Perhaps it all happened too quickly regardless and I'm projecting because security over here seems woefully inadequate. But as we know everything these days is under-staffed and under-serviced, which drives up risk, making companies and investors wealthier while others wear the cost of that risk.

Anyhow, I don't want to start another line of conspiracy theorising, but this is certainly a more productive line of enquiry than piling on the homeless and mentally ill.

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Meredith1965 



Joined: 04 Jun 2022


PostPosted: Mon Apr 15, 2024 6:40 pm
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^ Stui, if “Closing the big psych institutions like Mont Park was in line with best practice in treating mental health” and it has given us Cauchi and Gargasoulas and no doubt hundreds of other smaller familial tragedies (eg Phil Walsh), then “best” practice might be questionable.
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stui magpie Gemini

Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.


Joined: 03 May 2005
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 15, 2024 7:01 pm
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^

Things are always questionable and able to be improved, but 2 serious incidents in 7 years in the Country could also be the exceptions that prove the rule.

Just like people recover from medical procedures better at home rather than being stuck in a hospital bed, mental health conditions are best treated in the community with dedicated resources, giving the person dignity, respect and independance rather than the old model of institutionalsing them for life just because they had mental illness.

I'm not suggesting the system is perfect, it's far from that, but the intent is right it's just the resourcing that's inadequate.

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think positive Libra

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 15, 2024 9:41 pm
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lazzadesilva wrote:
Two things. Firstly I have heard so many times about people wanting to ban guns in the USA because someone with a gun can kill more people than people an arsehole with a knife. Obviously this is correct although a total of 6 or possibly more victims is still a significant amount of people. I feel so sad for the victims and families.
Secondly older Collingwood fans will always remember Kerry Good who kicked a goal well after the siren to win a night series grand final for North in 1977. Tragically one of the victims was his young daughter 🥲


yeah i was there that night, thats really horrible. poor man.


Closing mont park was all well and good, but what of the people who could not function in group homes without more supervision? how many street people have mental illness, im not talking drug addicts, im talking people who are just born not right in the head? or have a medical disorder? while I dont agree with Davids take take take from the top tier attitude, I do agree that there should be no homeless people in this country.

Listening to the family, he was still welcome at home, they said he picked on women because he couldn't score basically.

I'm $$%^%%$ over the excuses though, ok your pissed off at the world, kill yourself if you must, but don't take innocents with you, and don't choose suicide by cop.

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think positive Libra

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 15, 2024 9:42 pm
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stui magpie wrote:
^

Things are always questionable and able to be improved, but 2 serious incidents in 7 years in the Country could also be the exceptions that prove the rule.

Just like people recover from medical procedures better at home rather than being stuck in a hospital bed, mental health conditions are best treated in the community with dedicated resources, giving the person dignity, respect and independance rather than the old model of institutionalsing them for life just because they had mental illness.

I'm not suggesting the system is perfect, it's far from that, but the intent is right it's just the resourcing that's inadequate.


maybe something like a prison farm? or one of those Alzheimer villages, but with extra security.

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stui magpie Gemini

Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.


Joined: 03 May 2005
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 16, 2024 9:22 am
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^

The inpatient units serve that purpose. Many have an open door policy, people are able to go outside for a smoke or go for a walk and are trusted to come back. The idea is to get them in, get them stabiliised with meds, then get them back into the community with follow up from Mental Health pactitioners.

This bloke in question had been stable for over 20 years, living at home. Then he went off his meds and chose to travel the East Coast largely sleeping rough.

Anyway, only days after this incident there's been another stabbing in Sydney. This time a Teenager attacked 2 church clerics while a service was being live streamed and incited a riot by church followers who attacked the Police trying to get to the kid. This one HAS been labelled an act of Terrorism.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2024-04-16/nsw-wakeley-church-bishop-stabbing-attack-police-minns/103728120

Oddball church, quite extreme and hardline with some quite polarising opinions.

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think positive Libra

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 16, 2024 10:35 am
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and the attacks on the cops should also be labeled terrorism, wtf is going on!
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Magpietothemax Taurus

magpietothemax


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 16, 2024 6:40 pm
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Meredith1965 wrote:
^ Stui, if “Closing the big psych institutions like Mont Park was in line with best practice in treating mental health” and it has given us Cauchi and Gargasoulas and no doubt hundreds of other smaller familial tragedies (eg Phil Walsh), then “best” practice might be questionable.

It was "best practice" according to the real estate industry and property speculators, that is for sure.

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Magpietothemax Taurus

magpietothemax


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 16, 2024 6:44 pm
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David wrote:
What I’m describing is beer. Champagne is tax cuts and breaks for upper income earners.

Of course, many people will shrug off random tragedies like this " and, indeed, the entire homeless situation " as a small price to pay for preserving the current order of things. But I’d rather live in a society where we look out for those who have nothing and no-one. For me, that’s the difference between a community and a dog-eat-dog world of individuals trying to get ahead.


Nice post, David. But under the current social system, where private individuals are allowed to hoard more wealth than the bottom 50% of the population, and governments that defend the class interests of this miniscule super wealthy elite, there will never be adequate resourcing according to social need. That is why none of these issues can be resolved. It is not a question of not enough material resources - it is a question of the distribution of society's resources.

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