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stui magpie 
Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.
Joined: 03 May 2005
Location: In flagrante delicto
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| David wrote: | | stui magpie wrote: | | natural justice isn't served well by dragging shit out so long with no valid reasons. |
I agree with this. Nonetheless, I'm disturbed how the narrative has turned so quickly (and some would say predictably) to Clarko being the victim and the Indigenous accusers being at fault.
Many of us said it at the time, and I'll say it again: if Clarkson and Fagan did what they are accused of, they should never coach or be involved in any way in AFL again. So whatever issues we may have with the process taking so long or with how "unreasonable" the complainants have been, or whatever sympathy we feel for Clarkson for having to deal with this for so long, we shouldn't lose sight of the thing that's being investigated here. And neither should we forget that being accused of a horrendous act isn't worse than being subjected to it. |
The media loves a scapegoat. I agree that IF they did say what they are accused of , neither should not just coach but hold any role in AFL again.
However, as TP said, there is 3 sides to every story. It's entirely possible for both parties to be correct. Humans often don't hear the actual words someone says but what they believe is meant by them, and that belief can be impacted by all sorts of things.
I've seen actual examples where 1 party accuses the other of saying something, the accused party denies it, you try to dig down to the accused best recollection of exactly what they said, then put to the accuser that this what what was actually said, and they respond with "It's the same thing".
It's not the same thing, you can clearly see the intent behind the words, but the accuser has interpreted the meaning differently (not unreasonably) to what was intended meaning the intent and what was heard are poles apart.
I'd suggest it's likely that there was something like this scenario at play here.
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Every dead body on Mt Everest was once a highly motivated person, so maybe just calm the **** down. |
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lazzadesilva 
Joined: 04 Feb 2003
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| stui magpie wrote: | I've seen actual examples where 1 party accuses the other of saying something, the accused party denies it, you try to dig down to the accused best recollection of exactly what they said, then put to the accuser that this what what was actually said, and they respond with "It's the same thing".
It's not the same thing, you can clearly see the intent behind the words, but the accuser has interpreted the meaning differently (not unreasonably) to what was intended meaning the intent and what was heard are poles apart. |
You are absolutely correct. I would love a dollar for every time I have dealt with such situations. Speaking generally (not regarding this particular issue), people can interpret identical verbal and non verbal communications in totally different and completely opposite ways. Need to be extremely careful when you try discern and decipher meanings.
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I term the current Collingwood attack based strategy “Unceasing Waves” like on a stormy and windy day with rough seas. A Perfect Storm ☔️ |
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stui magpie
Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.
Joined: 03 May 2005
Location: In flagrante delicto
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Cheers Lazza,
I can see how you would have constant experience in your role as a Social Worker, mine comes from misconduct investigations.
Anything you say or do can be misinterpreted by someone else, depending on how their filters are working.
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Every dead body on Mt Everest was once a highly motivated person, so maybe just calm the **** down. |
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David 
I dare you to try
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda
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| stui magpie wrote: | The media loves a scapegoat. I agree that IF they did say what they are accused of , neither should not just coach but hold any role in AFL again.
However, as TP said, there is 3 sides to every story. It's entirely possible for both parties to be correct. Humans often don't hear the actual words someone says but what they believe is meant by them, and that belief can be impacted by all sorts of things.
I've seen actual examples where 1 party accuses the other of saying something, the accused party denies it, you try to dig down to the accused best recollection of exactly what they said, then put to the accuser that this what what was actually said, and they respond with "It's the same thing".
It's not the same thing, you can clearly see the intent behind the words, but the accuser has interpreted the meaning differently (not unreasonably) to what was intended meaning the intent and what was heard are poles apart.
I'd suggest it's likely that there was something like this scenario at play here. |
What jumped out to me from the story was less what Clarkson etc. were accused of saying but what they allegedly did: the coerced relationship break-ups, phone number changes, demands that players' girlfriends abort pregnancies and decisions over where to live (e.g. Clarkson and co. turning up at a player's home, instructing him to pack his possessions and come live with an assistant coach). I haven't followed the media reportage on the investigations of late, but is it possible those details have gotten lost in the process?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W6ThJvhdDJs
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All watched over by machines of loving grace |
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think positive
Side By Side
Joined: 30 Jun 2005
Location: somewhere
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Details? Accusations
You don’t think Collingwood keep an eye on our boys?
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You cant fix stupid, turns out you cant quarantine it either! |
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David
I dare you to try
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda
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I don't understand the question. What does "keeping an eye on players" have to do with what's been alleged here?
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All watched over by machines of loving grace |
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Piesnchess
piesnchess
Joined: 09 Jun 2008
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No doubt Clarkson has been under a lot of pressure by all this racist stuff, no doubt of that. But I reckon it goes a bit deeper. Lets face it, at the Hawks he had a dream team, champion team, stars on every line, thanks in no small part to our Graham Wright as recruiting officer. He got four flags, it was a dream ride, even in his last yr the Hawks were competitive. Now, hes at an absolute basket case of a team, whose supporter base is woeful, who struggle to pull 10 000 to their home games. I honestly dont think he thought they were as bad as they are, onfield and offield. Last yr, North were not as bad as this, they should have beaten us, I was there, for 3 qtrs they dominated us, we wee lucky too win, and in other matches they were competitive too. He thought they would be far better I reckon, and hes had a huge wake up call that they are utter shit. Thats why JHF left, he knew they have a totally crap list, and hasnt he kicked on at PA ! I reckon Clarko is not used to being belted by huge margins, week after week, and he cant hack it and plus all this race issue, he wants out. Hes not ready for a total rebuild at Norf, will take years. I was actually very surprised he took the gig, he could have gone to the Bombers, with far better prospects. I see Ratten is now their senior coach, I will be surprised if Clarko returns too North. Hes never been a good loser, has a lot of anger issues, we all know that. I cant see him coming back, no matter how this race issue pans out.
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Poverty exists not because we cannot feed the poor, but because we cannot satisfy the rich.
Chess and Vodka are born brothers. - Russian proverb. |
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stui magpie
Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.
Joined: 03 May 2005
Location: In flagrante delicto
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| David wrote: | | I don't understand the question. What does "keeping an eye on players" have to do with what's been alleged here? |
Back when Swanny was a young bloke trying to establish himself, he was living with some mates in an environment the club didn't consider conducive to his best preparation, so they ordered him to buy a house and move away from his mates.
Swanny sold the house in Coburg earlier this year, which was when he told the story.
Clubs tell young players where to live and who not to associate with all the time, but leaving out the allegation of telling the young woman to terminate a pregnancy, if the other allegations are remotely true then the minimum they did wrong was demonstrate serious cultural insensitivity to young Indigenous people.
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Every dead body on Mt Everest was once a highly motivated person, so maybe just calm the **** down. |
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lazzadesilva
Joined: 04 Feb 2003
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All clubs have players who need a kick up their arse to reach their full potential. Ginny is one and I remember Aaron James being one, as well as Sam Kekovich, Trent Hotten and Terry Keyes among others.
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I term the current Collingwood attack based strategy “Unceasing Waves” like on a stormy and windy day with rough seas. A Perfect Storm ☔️ |
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Jezza 
2023 PREMIERS!
Joined: 06 Sep 2010
Location: Ponsford End
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| Piesnchess wrote: | | Last yr, North were not as bad as this, they should have beaten us, I was there, for 3 qtrs they dominated us, we wee lucky too win, and in other matches they were competitive too. |
North's percentage last year was in the 50s.
Their performance against us came off the back of 11 or 12 consecutive weeks of losing margins of 45+ points which was a VFL/AFL record at the time. What they did against us was more an aberration rather than a sign of them being competitive.
This year they seemed to have regressed after a promising early start, but today was an improved performance and they were unlucky to lose in the dying stages due to an interchange infringement.
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think positive
Side By Side
Joined: 30 Jun 2005
Location: somewhere
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| stui magpie wrote: | | David wrote: | | I don't understand the question. What does "keeping an eye on players" have to do with what's been alleged here? |
Back when Swanny was a young bloke trying to establish himself, he was living with some mates in an environment the club didn't consider conducive to his best preparation, so they ordered him to buy a house and move away from his mates.
Swanny sold the house in Coburg earlier this year, which was when he told the story.
Clubs tell young players where to live and who not to associate with all the time, but leaving out the allegation of telling the young woman to terminate a pregnancy, if the other allegations are remotely true then the minimum they did wrong was demonstrate serious cultural insensitivity to young Indigenous people. |
thanks for explaining what i thought was obvious!!! 
as for the pregnancy, id still like the context if there is any truth to it.
and heres the thing, they are saying the coaches will be exonerated, but they have still suffered by trial by media.
yeah hes an angry dude, not the only coach like that though, and i still would have had him if not for Craig!
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You cant fix stupid, turns out you cant quarantine it either! |
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stui magpie
Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.
Joined: 03 May 2005
Location: In flagrante delicto
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Yeah, apparently they'll be exhonerated, but the couple who made the claim that he tried to get the woman to have an abortion declined to be part of the process so that allegation hasn't been tested and may still end up in some civil tribunal.
For the other claims, it seems that they're guilty of treating the young Indigenous guys the same as they treated all the other players, which is at minimum lacking cultural sensitivity as I said earlier and at worst indirect racism by not taking into account cultural differences.
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Every dead body on Mt Everest was once a highly motivated person, so maybe just calm the **** down. |
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think positive
Side By Side
Joined: 30 Jun 2005
Location: somewhere
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Why should they be treated differently for a start.
How long ago was this?
Things have changed and I’m not sure we should pay the price for things we did in the past that had a different set of rules
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You cant fix stupid, turns out you cant quarantine it either! |
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stui magpie
Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.
Joined: 03 May 2005
Location: In flagrante delicto
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People's religous and cultural backgrounds should be taken into account. Treating young Indigenous men, particularly those from remote communities and/or with trauma backgrounds, shouldn't be treated the same as white private school boys who've come through an elite pathway.
Eddie Betts couldn't read when first drafted by carlton. When his family first moved to Melbourne so he could try to get into the AFL his family were sleeping on the floor in Byron Pickett's garage.
Clubs work with their Muslim players who fast during Ramadan and may have prayer room requirements at the club. What if the young Jewish player at Norf has issues playing Friday Night? Do you just say "suck it up" or do you work with him to sort out a mutual agreement?
Good clubs (and workplaces) should treat everyone the same, to a point, and then make changes in approach depending on their background and culture.
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Every dead body on Mt Everest was once a highly motivated person, so maybe just calm the **** down. |
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slangman
Joined: 11 Aug 2003
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| stui magpie wrote: | Yeah, apparently they'll be exhonerated, but the couple who made the claim that he tried to get the woman to have an abortion declined to be part of the process so that allegation hasn't been tested and may still end up in some civil tribunal.
For the other claims, it seems that they're guilty of treating the young Indigenous guys the same as they treated all the other players, which is at minimum lacking cultural sensitivity as I said earlier and at worst indirect racism by not taking into account cultural differences. |
FWIW, about 8 years ago i had an employee who was swinging hands with a young woman who was nothing short of feral.
I advised him to leave her for his own sake and to 100% not get her pregnant.
He didn’t listen and now that child is in foster care.
If a situation similar to that arose again, i would say the exact same thing with no hesitation.
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