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Pies4shaw 
pies4shaw
Joined: 08 Oct 2007
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| David wrote: | | Skids wrote: | Would that case not fit the criteria to warrant an abortion?
I'm no expert, but I don't think a 10 year old girl could safely give birth? |
Perhaps, but "safely" doesn't necessarily equate with the higher bar of "life and death", and there's no guarantee that this case would necessarily meet that criteria. Unfortunately, strict anti-abortion laws do inevitably result in deaths in childbirth because such jurisdictions don't tend to give women with unsafe pregnancies the benefit of the doubt, and – even in the best case scenario – uncertainty over the law means that, regardless, dangerous pregnancies are brought to term. And when you have a 10-year-old who's six weeks pregnant, you need clear answers quickly. |
One also needs to appreciate that whether the safety of a pregnant girl or woman was in danger at the relevant time is, as a matter of law, a question of fact. So, unless there's provision for a final evidentiary certificate (ie, proof that can't be gainsaid) to be provided by someone to that effect (and there doesn't seem to be in any of these new Republican laws), there's always the risk of criminal prosecution. In short, abortion is relevantly a crime, unless you can bring yourself within the exception. Even if you think you have done so, there is no way of being comfortable that a zealous prosecutor won't test that conclusion by bringing criminal charges. These sorts of laws tend to operate in terrorem. Thus, they will tend to have a chilling effect in many cases - that is, people will decline abortion not because they can remain pregnant "safely" but because no person in their right mind wants to risk criminal charges that may be open, whatever they believe the rights and wrongs of their situation to be. Laws like this are invidious. |
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David 
I dare you to try
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda
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On the latter, can anyone confirm whether pregnant women are themselves potentially legally liable in these states passing anti-abortion legislation, or whether it's just abortion providers + 'accessories' at this stage? I've been hearing contradictory info on that.
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Pies4shaw
pies4shaw
Joined: 08 Oct 2007
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David
I dare you to try
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda
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Thanks P4S. This seems relevant in the footnotes:
| Quote: | Utah’s abortion statutes do not appear to protect women who seek terminations not permitted by statute, though seeking an abortion permitted under the law should insulate a pregnant woman from criminal liability. U.C. § 76-7-314.5. This protection, however, appears to be nothing more than a tautology, prohibiting criminal liability where a woman obtains a legal abortion. See also If When How, “Self-Managed Abortion, the Law, and Covid-19 Fact Sheet, available at https://www.ifwhenhow.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/04/20_04_Final_SMA_TheLaw_COVID-19_
FactSheet_PDF.pdf (“[t]o date, no one has been prosecuted just for ordering abortion pills, obtaining a prescription online, or trying to get a prescription filled at a pharmacy. Nonetheless, evidence of having purchased abortion pills online has been used against people charged with other crimes related to self-managed abortion.”) |
Otherwise, if I'm reading correctly, the gist regarding prosecution of women seems to be "no in theory, but yes in practice in some rare cases and possibly more broadly in future" for the states with the harshest laws.
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All watched over by machines of loving grace |
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stui magpie 
Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.
Joined: 03 May 2005
Location: In flagrante delicto
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I genuinely don't understand how this shit happens in a first world country, supposedly the worlds leading democracy.
When combined with the gun laws it's almost some deranged conspiracy, we can't let women have abortions or there might not be enough kids at school to shoot at. It's fckd.
The Catholic Churches obsession with birth control stemmed from wanting Catholics to be good breeders, to increase the population of Catholics and thereby increase money and control. Hence masturbation and sodomy were sins, can't have all that sperm being wasted by pumping it onto the floor or up a back passage where there's no egg to be fertilised. Hell, a good fellatrix who swallowed would be considered a mass murderer or guilty of genocide.
But the catholic church is hardly a thing in the USA anymore, where do these archaic beliefs come from in this day and age?
Also, why do so many people seem obsessed with controlling other people's lives?
You think cigarettes and alcohol are bad, fine, don't use them but don't deny me the right to.
You think fast food is poison, fine, same deal.
You think abortion is wrong, fine, but that doesn't give you the right to take control of their body and choices from women who want to use that service.
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Every dead body on Mt Everest was once a highly motivated person, so maybe just calm the **** down. |
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What'sinaname
Joined: 29 May 2010
Location: Living rent free
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| stui magpie wrote: | I genuinely don't understand how this shit happens in a first world country, supposedly the worlds leading democracy.
When combined with the gun laws it's almost some deranged conspiracy, we can't let women have abortions or there might not be enough kids at school to shoot at. It's fckd.
The Catholic Churches obsession with birth control stemmed from wanting Catholics to be good breeders, to increase the population of Catholics and thereby increase money and control. Hence masturbation and sodomy were sins, can't have all that sperm being wasted by pumping it onto the floor or up a back passage where there's no egg to be fertilised. Hell, a good fellatrix who swallowed would be considered a mass murderer or guilty of genocide.
But the catholic church is hardly a thing in the USA anymore, where do these archaic beliefs come from in this day and age?
Also, why do so many people seem obsessed with controlling other people's lives?
You think cigarettes and alcohol are bad, fine, don't use them but don't deny me the right to.
You think fast food is poison, fine, same deal.
You think abortion is wrong, fine, but that doesn't give you the right to take control of their body and choices from women who want to use that service. |
I think the decisions are very much about not controlling other people's lives. The 2nd amendment is about saying the Government can't control peoples right to bear arms.
Similarly, the SCOTUS said that Roe vs Wade isn't protected under the Constitution and pushed it back to elected representatives at the State level. If elected representatives have got it wrong, they'll be voted out. |
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think positive
Side By Side
Joined: 30 Jun 2005
Location: somewhere
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| stui magpie wrote: | I genuinely don't understand how this shit happens in a first world country, supposedly the worlds leading democracy.
When combined with the gun laws it's almost some deranged conspiracy, we can't let women have abortions or there might not be enough kids at school to shoot at. It's fckd.
The Catholic Churches obsession with birth control stemmed from wanting Catholics to be good breeders, to increase the population of Catholics and thereby increase money and control. Hence masturbation and sodomy were sins, can't have all that sperm being wasted by pumping it onto the floor or up a back passage where there's no egg to be fertilised. Hell, a good fellatrix who swallowed would be considered a mass murderer or guilty of genocide.
But the catholic church is hardly a thing in the USA anymore, where do these archaic beliefs come from in this day and age?
Also, why do so many people seem obsessed with controlling other people's lives?
You think cigarettes and alcohol are bad, fine, don't use them but don't deny me the right to.
You think fast food is poison, fine, same deal.
You think abortion is wrong, fine, but that doesn't give you the right to take control of their body and choices from women who want to use that service. |
great post
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You cant fix stupid, turns out you cant quarantine it either! |
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David
I dare you to try
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda
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| What'sinaname wrote: | I think the decisions are very much about not controlling other people's lives. The 2nd amendment is about saying the Government can't control peoples right to bear arms.
Similarly, the SCOTUS said that Roe vs Wade isn't protected under the Constitution and pushed it back to elected representatives at the State level. If elected representatives have got it wrong, they'll be voted out. |
You can defend each ruling legalistically, but there’s no sense in which they are following a similar principle. One rules that one right (to carry guns in public) is fundamental, enshrined by the constitution and not up to the states to pass laws on; and the other one rules that a woman’s decision as to whether she wishes to carry a pregnancy to term is, if it can be said to be a right at all, a lower-order one and subject to no such protections. So to say that they’re both equally about not controlling people’s lives is nonsense, as we all know that liberty was at the core of Roe v. Wade from the beginning, and that this court instead sees that liberty as inessential.
There’s no need for obfuscation here. What’s being prioritised is explicit.
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All watched over by machines of loving grace |
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Skids 
Quitting drinking will be one of the best choices you make in your life.
Joined: 11 Sep 2007
Location: Joined 3/6/02 . Member #175
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| stui magpie wrote: | I genuinely don't understand how this shit happens in a first world country, supposedly the worlds leading democracy.
Also, why do so many people seem obsessed with controlling other people's lives?
You think cigarettes and alcohol are bad, fine, don't use them but don't deny me the right to.
You think fast food is poison, fine, same deal.
You think abortion is wrong, fine, but that doesn't give you the right to take control of their body and choices from women who want to use that service. |
I agree totally but think you may have missed forced vaccinations in your examples. Especially now that anybody entering Australia, no longer has to show any proof of vaccination and anyone can now get a job on the site I work at without being vaxxed.
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Don't count the days, make the days count. |
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think positive
Side By Side
Joined: 30 Jun 2005
Location: somewhere
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Vaccinations are to protect others not just yourself, mandated vaccination was for public health reasons, you can’t compare, and they were not forced, you didn’t have to get it, you just could not move around as freely!
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You cant fix stupid, turns out you cant quarantine it either! |
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stui magpie
Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.
Joined: 03 May 2005
Location: In flagrante delicto
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| Skids wrote: | | stui magpie wrote: | I genuinely don't understand how this shit happens in a first world country, supposedly the worlds leading democracy.
Also, why do so many people seem obsessed with controlling other people's lives?
You think cigarettes and alcohol are bad, fine, don't use them but don't deny me the right to.
You think fast food is poison, fine, same deal.
You think abortion is wrong, fine, but that doesn't give you the right to take control of their body and choices from women who want to use that service. |
I agree totally but think you may have missed forced vaccinations in your examples. Especially now that anybody entering Australia, no longer has to show any proof of vaccination and anyone can now get a job on the site I work at without being vaxxed. |
I can see the similarities, but also see it's quite different.
I'm also very much aware that banning cigarettes and alcohol or mandating vaccinations are a far lesser infringement on a persons rights than banning them from having an abortion. The point was about people enforcing their beliefs onto others.
_________________
Every dead body on Mt Everest was once a highly motivated person, so maybe just calm the **** down. |
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swoop42 
Whatcha gonna do when he comes for you?
Joined: 02 Aug 2008
Location: The 18
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"Right now, the Senate is split evenly in half, but the 50 Democratic senators represent 41.5 million more people than the 50 Republican senators."
That right there is why Roe vs Wade was so important because it not only reflected the progressive majority of the United States population as a whole it also protected an individual woman's right to take control of her body and not have that determined by the ballot box of the state she was lucky or unfortunate to live in.
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He's mad. He's bad. He's MaynHARD! |
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stui magpie
Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.
Joined: 03 May 2005
Location: In flagrante delicto
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think positive
Side By Side
Joined: 30 Jun 2005
Location: somewhere
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I’m thankful for the warning
That poor woman, my heart breaks for her, so brave and so selfless
RIP Toby xx
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You cant fix stupid, turns out you cant quarantine it either! |
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pietillidie
Joined: 07 Jan 2005
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^You could really feel that. Excruciating emotional pain.
No one sane would feel otherwise. I've always assumed late-term abortions would police themselves in that way, i.e., the decision is so painful no one does it flippantly and without very good cause.
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In the end the rain comes down, washes clean the streets of a blue sky town.
Help Nick's: http://www.magpies.net/nick/bb/fundraising.htm |
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