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David 
I dare you to try
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda
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The thing that's so gloomy about the "let's just hope the states fix it" approach is that the entire story of civil rights in the US is one of conservative states oppressing minorities before eventually being overruled. Examples of this are endless: slavery, segregation, same-sex marriage, etc. So more power for the states has almost always been code for allowing discrimination and disenfranchisement to continue long past the time that the majority of the national public found them tolerable, as is clearly the case now with abortion.
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stui magpie 
Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.
Joined: 03 May 2005
Location: In flagrante delicto
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Yeah, but they don't have a lot of choice do they? The way they're set up means Congress is limited in what they can pass laws on to Constitutional matters aren't they? So if the court has ruled that abortion isn't a constitutional matter, what can they do?
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Every dead body on Mt Everest was once a highly motivated person, so maybe just calm the **** down. |
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Pies4shaw 
pies4shaw
Joined: 08 Oct 2007
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Stack the Court and reverse it, as soon as they get the chance, it seems - since that's thw way constitutional law is determined in the US.
Really, a properly-functioning superior appellate court would never have over-turned Roe v Wade. The correct answer (which our High Court applies routinely) is to say that "this has been a right enjoyed in our country for 50 years and whatever our misgivings, it would be inappropriate to fetter it at this late date". It's politics that got the decision changed, not jurisprudence - and their idiocy has put the standing of the Supreme Court in considerable jeopardy.
Last edited by Pies4shaw on Mon Jun 27, 2022 2:39 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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David
I dare you to try
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda
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| stui magpie wrote: | | Yeah, but they don't have a lot of choice do they? The way they're set up means Congress is limited in what they can pass laws on to Constitutional matters aren't they? So if the court has ruled that abortion isn't a constitutional matter, what can they do? |
Not quite sure I catch your drift there, Stui. I don't think there's anything in theory stopping congress from passing legislation on abortion; it's only if it were found to be unconstitutional that it would be a problem (and that's not what the Supreme Court has ruled). The trouble for the Democrats is that they don't have the numbers in the senate (60+ with the filibuster rule in place) to pass anything at the moment, let alone something so contentious.
People like to forget this – and maybe internal dissent is going to further dissolve in these increasingly partisan times – but even Democrats themselves aren't fully united on this issue:
https://www.politico.com/story/2016/07/tim-kaine-abortion-predicament-225053
Edit: oh, and speaking of which...
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-politics/biden-roe-v-wade-overturned-b2072143.html
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pietillidie
Joined: 07 Jan 2005
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Just came across this. No surprises here, but it's never easy for sane people to counter rabid nutters. The motivational asymmetry is what causes so much social division, because to beat the SOBs you have to match them in motivation by driving yourself to fury against your own better judgement:
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2022-06-27/anti-abortion-centers-find-pregnant-teens-online-then-save-their-data
The likes of Brexit and Trump always get the jump because they're inciting deranged motivation, after which the sane recoup ground and the crazies are eventually exposed. But it's very difficult to counter them up-front because the sane by definition don't want to climb in the mental case mud with them.
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think positive
Side By Side
Joined: 30 Jun 2005
Location: somewhere
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| David wrote: | | The thing that's so gloomy about the "let's just hope the states fix it" approach is that the entire story of civil rights in the US is one of conservative states oppressing minorities before eventually being overruled. Examples of this are endless: slavery, segregation, same-sex marriage, etc. So more power for the states has almost always been code for allowing discrimination and disenfranchisement to continue long past the time that the majority of the national public found them tolerable, as is clearly the case now with abortion. |
ive said for ages each state almost needs to be a seperate country, problem is some would end up empty, its absolute madness, there are states now that i will probably never go back to, i would not feel safe. honestly, when will the madness end? Trump has done so much damage.
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You cant fix stupid, turns out you cant quarantine it either! |
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think positive
Side By Side
Joined: 30 Jun 2005
Location: somewhere
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| Pies4shaw wrote: | Stack the Court and reverse it, as soon as they get the chance, it seems - since that's thw way constitutional law is determined in the US.
Really, a properly-functioning superior appellate court would never have over-turned Roe v Wade. The correct answer (which our High Court applies routinely) is to say that "this has been a right enjoyed in our country for 50 years and whatever our misgivings, it would be inappropriate to fetter it at this late date". It's politics that got the decision changed, not jurisprudence - and their idiocy has put the standing of the Supreme Court in considerable jeopardy. |
any chance of that? it seems crazy they can do this, that they can even think or want to do this, and now talk of same sex marriage being overturned, going back to the dark ages,
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You cant fix stupid, turns out you cant quarantine it either! |
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David
I dare you to try
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda
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| think positive wrote: | | ive said for ages each state almost needs to be a seperate country, problem is some would end up empty, its absolute madness, there are states now that i will probably never go back to, i would not feel safe. honestly, when will the madness end? Trump has done so much damage. |
On this, at least, Trump was just a vessel. Any Republican president would have done the same. And let's not forget that a lot of right-wing Christians held their nose to vote for Trump for this reason alone: they may have had their doubts about his character, but they knew that he'd get them what they wanted, which was Supreme Court appointments and the partisan stranglehold over the country that they now enjoy.
More so than Trump, it's really Mitch McConnell whom Americans should be directing their gratitude to, for leading his party to block a Democratic judicial appointment for spurious reasons and then, as soon as the shoe was on the other foot, subsequently deciding those reasons didn't matter after all. If either one of those hadn't happened, the conservatives would still have a 5-4 majority, but one of those five would be the relatively moderate Chief Justice, John Roberts, and there might at least be some limits to the court's ambitions. But as they say in the football, one side just wanted the win more.
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All watched over by machines of loving grace |
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stui magpie
Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.
Joined: 03 May 2005
Location: In flagrante delicto
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| David wrote: | | stui magpie wrote: | | Yeah, but they don't have a lot of choice do they? The way they're set up means Congress is limited in what they can pass laws on to Constitutional matters aren't they? So if the court has ruled that abortion isn't a constitutional matter, what can they do? |
Not quite sure I catch your drift there, Stui. I don't think there's anything in theory stopping congress from passing legislation on abortion; it's only if it were found to be unconstitutional that it would be a problem (and that's not what the Supreme Court has ruled). l |
Yeah, but they could pass legislation saying Abortion is legal, that wouldn't prevent states putting restrictions in place.
I don't believe they could legislate specific abortion legislation such as term limits and medical requirements and compel the states to comply.
Wasn't there some mess a few years back when under Federal Law, marijuana was illegal but states were passing legislation to decriminalise it?
Similar to here, Federal legislation is silent on abortion, each state has their own laws.
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Every dead body on Mt Everest was once a highly motivated person, so maybe just calm the **** down. |
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stui magpie
Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.
Joined: 03 May 2005
Location: In flagrante delicto
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| think positive wrote: |
ive said for ages each state almost needs to be a seperate country, problem is some would end up empty, its absolute madness, there are states now that i will probably never go back to, i would not feel safe. |
I'd go back to Vegas and California in a heartbeat. I'd love to go to New Orleans and Dallas or Austin Texas. No desire to go to New York.
I never felt unsafe anywhere there, but I did avoid going into the Tenderloin in San Fran. The fringe was ratty enough in daytime.
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Every dead body on Mt Everest was once a highly motivated person, so maybe just calm the **** down. |
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David
I dare you to try
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda
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An interesting argument in favour of the Supreme Court’s ruling from Peter Singer:
https://www.project-syndicate.org/commentary/dobbs-decision-radical-implications-for-supreme-court-by-peter-singer-2022-06
I agree with his premise – that elected governments rather than the courts are the appropriate place to be making laws – but putting that principle on a pedestal above real-world outcomes seems an odd position for a utilitarian to take. Saying progressive judges shouldn’t use their considerable power to interpret the constitution in a sensible (rather than fundamentalist) way seems akin to frowning at liberal churches for being okay with homosexuality. I mean, yes, it might be a less theologically sound position, but if it results in fewer Christians persecuting gay people then good, no?
Singer’s argument also puts the cart before the horse. Yes, the Supreme Court’s power should be reduced; but letting Roe fall doesn’t really aid that in any way, because we know by now that Supreme Court decisions regarding social issues in this day and age are primarily ideologically motivated and have little if anything to do with adhering to a coherent legal principle. Bring down the system, sure – but, until you do, it is still the system.
If progressives win back the Supreme Court and decide that abortion rights are implicit in the Fourteenth Amendment, then I don’t really see the problem. If the concern is delegitimisation of the courts or undermining the electoral system, then surely those ships have long since sailed, and pro-abortion activists may as well play the cards they’ve been dealt.
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Pies4shaw
pies4shaw
Joined: 08 Oct 2007
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https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2022/jul/03/ohio-indiana-abortion-rape-victim
| Quote: | The case of a 10-year-old child rape victim in Ohio who was six weeks pregnant, ineligible for an abortion in her own state, and forced to travel to Indiana for the procedure has spotlighted the shocking impact of the US supreme court ruling on abortion.
The story of the girl came to light three days after the court overturned a nationwide right to terminate pregnancy, and Ohio’s six-week “trigger ban” came into effect.
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Republican governor Kristi Noem of South Dakota, mentioned as a potential running mate to Donald Trump in 2024, told CNN’s State of the Union on Sunday that she found it to be “incredible” that “nobody’s talking about the pervert, horrible and deranged individual that raped a 10-year-old”.
Abortions are now criminal acts in South Dakota “unless there is appropriate and reasonable medical judgment that performance of an abortion is necessary to preserve the life of the pregnant female”. Cases of incest and rape are not an exception under South Dakota’s law as it stands. |
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Skids 
Quitting drinking will be one of the best choices you make in your life.
Joined: 11 Sep 2007
Location: Joined 3/6/02 . Member #175
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Would that case not fit the criteria to warrant an abortion?
I'm no expert, but I don't think a 10 year old girl could safely give birth?
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Don't count the days, make the days count. |
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David
I dare you to try
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda
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| Quote: | | Republican governor Kristi Noem of South Dakota, mentioned as a potential running mate to Donald Trump in 2024, told CNN’s State of the Union on Sunday that she found it to be “incredible” that “nobody’s talking about the pervert, horrible and deranged individual that raped a 10-year-old”. |
Such a typical Republican response there. Insofar as "nobody's talking about" the rapist, it's only because it's a distraction and irrelevant to the issue at hand; the issue that is obviously within the power for politicians to legislate on right now is a law that forces child victims of rape to bring babies to term. You'd have to be really dumb to fall for that bait and switch.
| Skids wrote: | Would that case not fit the criteria to warrant an abortion?
I'm no expert, but I don't think a 10 year old girl could safely give birth? |
Perhaps, but "safely" doesn't necessarily equate with the higher bar of "life and death", and there's no guarantee that this case would necessarily meet that criteria. Unfortunately, strict anti-abortion laws do inevitably result in deaths in childbirth because such jurisdictions don't tend to give women with unsafe pregnancies the benefit of the doubt, and – even in the best case scenario – uncertainty over the law means that, regardless, dangerous pregnancies are brought to term. And when you have a 10-year-old who's six weeks pregnant, you need clear answers quickly.
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stui magpie
Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.
Joined: 03 May 2005
Location: In flagrante delicto
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| Quote: | | Noem told Bash she would not be in favor of amending the current law -- a so-called trigger law that took effect following the US Supreme Court's decision to overturn Roe v. Wade -- to add an exception for similar situations, saying, "I don't believe a tragic situation should be perpetuated by another tragedy." |
https://edition.cnn.com/2022/07/03/politics/kristi-noem-south-dakota-abortion-trigger-ban/index.html
I'm sorry?
The tragic situation of the child being raped WAS perpetuated by another tragedy, that the child was forced to travel interstate to undergo a medical procedure that should have been freely available to her in her home state.
Fkn loopy people
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Every dead body on Mt Everest was once a highly motivated person, so maybe just calm the **** down. |
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