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Bruce Gonsalves 
Joined: 05 Jul 2012
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| I'm going through some issues atm similar to Doc Phelpsy. Last 6 weeks or so have been experiencing fatigue at a rate that I can't fathom. I have an appt. with a Cardiologist in March for God's sake. An Ambo mate of mine said best thing to do is, with the onsight of any pain call the Ambulance and will be looked at a damn sight quicker. |
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What'sinaname 
Joined: 29 May 2010
Location: Living rent free
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It's the tip of the iceberg of adverse reactions that doctors have been too afraid to disclose / report.
How likely is it that Big Pharma bought the silence of doctors and politicians?
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Fighting against the objectification of woman. |
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Pies4shaw 
pies4shaw
Joined: 08 Oct 2007
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There's no need for any conspiracy theory. The vaccines have plainly worked, on the whole. There are side effects to the vaccines. Everyone has always known that. It hasn't been necessary to buy the silence of doctors and politicians.
You can have a debate about whether there are too many serious side effects or not without having to resort to the suggestion that the situation is born of corruption. There is no evidence for that at all. What there was - as we have always been told - was a need to make a "captain's call" about the use of vaccines in circumstances where the disease was, on balance, considered to be far more of a threat than the vaccine side effects, dangerous (or fatal) as those are in a modest number of cases.
Our Commonwealth Government even collects data on the adverse events and reports that in a transparent way, here: https://www.health.gov.au/our-work/covid-19-vaccines/advice-for-providers/clinical-guidance/adverse-events
It's possible that the health authorities are collectively wrong about all of this in some way but they are plainly not trying to hide it.
Also, lthere's the minor issue of mere coincidence - if you give vurtually the entire population a series of vaccinations, many of those people are going to become ill in various ways, in the ordinary course of events and absent the vaccines. Merely having the vaccinations and getting unwell in some unexpected way in close temporal proximity may or may not mean anything, statistically. In fact, the only way we can assess whether something may have been "caused" by the vaccine is by identifying statistically significant upward variation from the expected numbers (that is, in the same general population in a relevant period immediately before the widespread use of the vaccines).
Last edited by Pies4shaw on Wed Dec 21, 2022 10:16 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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What'sinaname
Joined: 29 May 2010
Location: Living rent free
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The vaccines worked in making Big Pharma $1000 of profit every second and making executive very, very wealthy.
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Fighting against the objectification of woman. |
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eddiesmith 
Lets get ready to Rumble
Joined: 23 Nov 2004
Location: Lexus Centre
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| Remember any reaction the day after having the vaccine is a coincidence but when a person who died after having Covid anytime within the last 6 months it’s entirely because of Covid… |
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David
I dare you to try
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda
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| Pies4shaw wrote: | | ^ How likely is it that they both suffered serious reactions? |
Well, they both say they did, and Phelps is, needless to say, a highly respected medical professional and about as credible as any person could be on this topic. So the answer to your question may well be: somewhat likelier than most of us would have assumed?
Even if it is a freak coincidence and such side-effects remain rare, it's at the very least worth paying serious attention to her concerns (both about the extent of adverse reactions and the more troubling question of whether there's been any suppression, self-imposed or otherwise, of reportage on that).
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Skids 
Quitting drinking will be one of the best choices you make in your life.
Joined: 11 Sep 2007
Location: Joined 3/6/02 . Member #175
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Ah, so now, we might get some truth on the whole thing.
I know heaps of people who didn't get vaccinated and, of those who did catch covid (many still haven't), had mild to zero symptoms.
Funny how quickly some are to label those who don't swallow all the propaganda as 'tin foil hat' wearers.
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Pies4shaw
pies4shaw
Joined: 08 Oct 2007
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^ David, I don't get why people buy into this sort of anecdotal account. The "lived experience" of one couple versus the weight of carefully acquired and analysed data. Given the limited likelihood of serious adverse events from the vaccines, it's much more likely that they both had some sort of viral infection, isn't it? It's a classic case of coincidence bias - "I had the vaccine, then I felt unwell, in reasonably close temporal proximity - it must have been the vaccine".
You know that in May 2021 her partner questioned whether Greg Hunt acquired a bacterial infection he then had from his COVID jab, right? The tweet was deleted really quickly.
Her and her partner getting sick around the time they had the COVID vaccine carries no more weight than me and my family not getting sick when we had ours. Neither personal observation has any evidentiary value at all. Her ciomments would be possibly worthy of exploration if the general information was that the vaccines are completely safe - no-one has ever said that - and the Government keeps detailed statistics and requires reporting of side effects. We know (and knew prior to their rollout here) that the vaccines cause side effects and kill people occasdionally. |
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stui magpie
Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.
Joined: 03 May 2005
Location: In flagrante delicto
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All I know is I've had 4 shots, no side effects at all, and despite being in close contact with someone who was positive and infectious, I've never to my knowledge caught Covid while others in the same places did.
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Every dead body on Mt Everest was once a highly motivated person, so maybe just calm the **** down. |
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David
I dare you to try
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda
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| Pies4shaw wrote: | ^ David, I don't get why people buy into this sort of anecdotal account. The "lived experience" of one couple versus the weight of carefully acquired and analysed data. Given the limited likelihood of serious adverse events from the vaccines, it's much more likely that they both had some sort of viral infection, isn't it? It's a classic case of coincidence bias - "I had the vaccine, then I felt unwell, in reasonably close temporal proximity - it must have been the vaccine".
You know that in May 2021 her partner questioned whether Greg Hunt acquired a bacterial infection he then had from his COVID jab, right? The tweet was deleted really quickly.
Her and her partner getting sick around the time they had the COVID vaccine carries no more weight than me and my family not getting sick when we had ours. Neither personal observation has any evidentiary value at all. Her ciomments would be possibly worthy of exploration if the general information was that the vaccines are completely safe - no-one has ever said that - and the Government keeps detailed statistics and requires reporting of side effects. We know (and knew prior to their rollout here) that the vaccines cause side effects and kill people occasdionally. |
This is the first I've heard of this tweet, but is the suggestion that her wife might be a vaccine sceptic? Even if that's so – and a more plausible explanation is that she had recently had her own negative experience and was trying to investigate further – it doesn't explain why Phelps would have a bar of it.
This isn't someone's uncle on Facebook getting a diagnosis from Google and putting two and two together. She's a respected medical professional who, we have every reason to believe, understands what she's talking about and would have done due diligence before coming to this conclusion about the cause of her and her partner's illnesses. (For what it's worth, their illnesses appear to have had very different symptoms and seem to have been contracted at different times, so a viral infection seems implausible as an explanation for both cases.) Phelps has also has no prior track record of vaccine scepticism and, for whatever it's worth, has been on the frontline of advocating for COVID restrictions throughout the pandemic (e.g. https://independentaustralia.net/politics/politics-display/kerryn-phelps-dropping-covid-safeguards-is-just-a-bad-idea,16713). So it disturbs me if our first impulse is to call her credibility or personal experience into question, rather than countenance the possibility that our own assumptions about the rarity of serious side-effects may have been inflated.
I'm sure she's not suggesting that serious adverse effects are the norm. Evidently they're in the minority, and yes, we knew that there was some risk from the beginning. But the difference between (say) 0.05%, 0.5% and 5% possibility is significant, and being able to know the exact risk of long-term health effects is important in order to make an informed choice (particularly if you're someone like me who may have a family history of myocarditis, which is the reason I chose AZ over Pfizer).
Phelps' story has two notable aspects for me: the first is the anecdotal story, which is at the very least eyebrow-raising, though not, as you say, evidence of anything in particular; the second is the suggestion that doctors have been afraid to report these cases and have been exercising a degree of self-censorship. That's the much more serious claim and, once again, not one that you would expect someone like Phelps to make lightly. She's also asking for further research on the issue, which sounds like a sensible idea. It makes sense that we wouldn't have a lot of info on that yet, given how little time has passed.
I have no sympathy for anti-vaxx conspiracism or, to be honest, any particular interest in the issue at all; like most people who haven't drunk the COVID-contrarian kool-aid, I assume that mainstream medical advice on COVID vaccinations has been reliable and well-founded. And personally, I don't really care what narrative this story serves; I'm only interested in what's true. So if we've been in any way misled about COVID vaccine side-effects (even if only by small orders of degree), then that is a big story. Certainly, I'd much rather it be investigated now than have to hear about it in a royal commission in five years' time.
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All watched over by machines of loving grace
Last edited by David on Thu Dec 22, 2022 12:03 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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What'sinaname
Joined: 29 May 2010
Location: Living rent free
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Do yo really think Dr Phelps is just wanting more investigation based solely on her and her partner's experience? Or is it more likely that she is fully aware of the suppression of Doctors by the AHPRA and the lack of any real investigation into side effects by the TGA?
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Fighting against the objectification of woman. |
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David
I dare you to try
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda
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For what it's worth, Phelps' full submission to the parliamentary inquiry is attached below (she discusses vaccine injury from pages 8 to 13):
Most relevant excerpt here:
| Quote: | The organisation of which I am a member, OzSAGE, produced a position statement IMPORTANCE OF COVID-19 VACCINATION & DEVELOPMENT OF BETTER SYSTEMS FOR MANAGEMENT OF UNCOMMON SUBSEQUENT ADVERSE EVENTS.
This important document outlines the main issues and areas of the health system in need of attention, including reporting of uncommon adverse events following immunisation, follow up of reports of AEFIs, confusion about the safety of future vaccines for people affected, recognition of the impact of vaccine injury on individuals affected, the importance of research and the need for treatment protocols to be developed. It was the result of eight months of discussions and consultation.
The OzSAGE document outlines the scope but not the scale of the problem because we do not know the scale of the problem. This is partly because of under-reporting and underrecognition.
This is an issue that I have witnessed first-hand with my wife who suffered a severe neurological reaction to her first Pfizer vaccine within minutes, including burning face and gums, paraesethesiae, and numb hands and feet, while under observation by myself, another doctor and a registered nurse at the time of immunisation. I continue to observe the devastating effects a year and a half later with the addition of fatigue and additional neurological symptoms including nerve pains, altered sense of smell, visual disturbance and musculoskeletal inflammation. The diagnosis and causation has been confirmed by several specialists who have told me that they have seen “a lot” of patients in a similar situation. Jackie asked me to include her story to raise awareness for others.
We did a lot of homework before having the vaccine, particularly about choice of vaccine at the time. In asking about adverse side effects, we were told that “the worst thing that could happen would be anaphylaxis” and that severe reactions such as myocarditis and pericarditis were “rare”.
I was also diagnosed with a vaccine injury from my second dose of Pfizer vaccine in July 2021, with the diagnosis and causation confirmed by specialist colleagues. I have had CT pulmonary angiogram, ECG, blood tests, cardiac echogram, transthoracic cardiac stress echo, Holter monitor, blood pressure monitoring and autonomic testing. In my case the injury resulted in dysautonomia with intermittent fevers and cardiovascular implications including breathlessness, inappropriate sinus tachycardia and blood pressure fluctuations.
These reactions were reported to the TGA at the time, but never followed up.
I have spoken with other doctors who have themselves experienced a serious and persistent adverse event including cardiological, rheumatological, autoimmune reactions and neurological consequences. Patients and other members of the community have told me about their stories.
They have had to search for answers, find GPs and specialists who are interested and able to help them, spend large amounts of money on medical investigations, isolate from friends and family, reduce work hours, lose work if they are required to attend in person and avoid social and cultural events.
Within this group of vaccine injured individuals, there is a diminishing cohort of people who have symptoms following immunisation, many of which are similar to Long COVID (such as fatigue and brain fog), but who have not had a COVID infection. These people would be an important subset or control group for studies looking into the pathophysiology, causes of and treatments for Long COVID.
It is possible that there is at least some shared pathophysiology between vaccine injury and Long COVID, possibly due to the effects of spike protein. A group of Greek scientists publish a good summary on the “spike”, which points to a possible mechanism of causality.
Vaccine injury is a subject that few in the medical profession have wanted to talk about. Regulators of the medical profession have censored public discussion about adverse events following immunisation, with threats to doctors not to make any public statements about anything that “might undermine the government’s vaccine rollout” or risk suspension or
loss of their registration.
“Any promotion of anti-vaccination statements or health advice which contradicts the best available scientific evidence or seeks to actively undermine the national immunisation campaign (including via social media) is not supported by National Boards and may be in breach of the codes of conduct and subject to investigation and possible regulatory action.” - Ahpra
In trying to convince people in positions of influence to pay attention to the risks of Long COVID and reinfection for people with vaccine injury, I have personally been met with obstruction and resistance to openly discuss this issue. There has been a delay in recognition of vaccine injury, partly because of under-reporting, concerns about vaccine hesitancy in the context of managing a global pandemic, and needing to find the balance between risks and benefits on a population level.
Reactions were said to be “rare” without data to confirm how common or otherwise these reactions were. In general practice I was seeing cases, which meant other GPs and specialists were seeing cases too. Without diagnostic tests, we have to rely largely on clinical history.
Germany’s Ministry for Health (Bundesgesundheitsministerium) has referred to “Post-Vac Syndrom”.
The Paul Ehrlich Institute (PEI) Germany’s pharmacovigilance body, has undertaken ongoing surveys of vaccine recipients (as opposed to the TGA which only accepts passive reports, or AusVaxSafety whose survey stopped at 6 weeks). They have found that the incidence of serious reactions occurs in 0.3 per 1000 shots (not people). Considering that the majority of Australian adults have now had at least one booster, this suggests that the incidence of serious adverse reactions per vaccinated person could be more than 1-in-1,000. PEI admits that under-reporting is a problem, and observers suggest that an order of magnitude of under-reporting is not unreasonable to consider (most estimates put underreporting at much worse than this).
Without acknowledgment and recognition of post-vaccination syndrome or vaccine injury, there can be no progress in developing protocols for diagnosis and treatment and it is difficult to be included in research projects or treatment programs. It has also meant a long and frustrating search for acknowledgment and an attempt at treatment for many individual patients. |
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All watched over by machines of loving grace |
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Pies4shaw
pies4shaw
Joined: 08 Oct 2007
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| David wrote: | I'm sure she's not suggesting that serious adverse effects are the norm. Evidently they're in the minority, and yes, we knew that there was some risk from the beginning. But the difference between (say) 0.05%, 0.5% and 5% possibility is significant, and being able to know the exact risk of long-term health effects is important in order to make an informed choice (particularly if you're someone like me who may have a family history of myocarditis, which is the reason I chose AZ over Pfizer).
Phelps' story has two notable aspects for me: the first is the anecdotal story, which is at the very least eyebrow-raising, though not, as you say, evidence of anything in particular; the second is the suggestion that doctors have been afraid to report these cases and have been exercising a degree of self-censorship. That's the much more serious claim and, once again, not one that you would expect someone like Phelps to make lightly. She's also asking for further research on the issue, which sounds like a sensible idea. It makes sense that we wouldn't have a lot of info on that yet, given how little time has passed.
I have no sympathy for anti-vaxx conspiracism or, to be honest, any particular interest in the issue at all; like most people who haven't drunk the COVID-contrarian kool-aid, I assume that mainstream medical advice on COVID vaccinations has been reliable and well-founded. And personally, I don't really care what narrative this story serves; I'm only interested in what's true. So if we've been in any way misled about COVID vaccine side-effects (even if only by small orders of degree), then that is a big story. Certainly, I'd much rather it be investigated now than have to hear about it in a royal commission in five years' time. |
So, she refers to 0.1 per cent of people (that is, 1 in every 3,000 shots but assume everyone has had 3), with possible under-reporting. Of course the data should be strengthened and necessary research into side-effects undertaken. What her submission doesn't do is support a view that the vaccines were foisted onto us, when they weren't actually necessary, by a greedy pharmaceutical industry, whose executives are now laughing all the way to the bank.
I think what's motivating her may have been set out in an article she wrote in late August:
| Quote: | | We warned some time ago that there was an over-reliance on vaccines as the solution to end the pandemic. The current vaccines are not able to stop transmission or infection, COVID illness, or long COVID. The next variant is just around the corner and if safeguards continue to be wound back, we will slam headlong into it. |
https://independentaustralia.net/politics/politics-display/kerryn-phelps-dropping-covid-safeguards-is-just-a-bad-idea,16713
That is, she has a concern that the current political strategy of saying "open slather, the vaccines have solved everything" is not good public health policy. That's a view with which I happen to agree. In that context, emphasizing the side-effects of the vaccines is another reason not to pretend that other public health measures are unnecessary. |
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What'sinaname
Joined: 29 May 2010
Location: Living rent free
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Not foisted on us? Excuse me? We weren't allowed out of home detention until vaccination rates reached a threshold.
They were foisted on us by politicians influenced by the "medical profession" who are wrapped around the little finger of Big Pharma. The latter has been true for decades.
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Fighting against the objectification of woman. |
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Jezza
2023 PREMIERS!
Joined: 06 Sep 2010
Location: Ponsford End
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I think a Royal Commission is needed into the pandemic response, both at a federal and state level.
I don't think it's acceptable that we just move on without learning the lessons of the past first.
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