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Tannin 
Can't remember
Joined: 06 Aug 2006
Location: Huon Valley Tasmania
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^ What are the Trots doing in bed with criminal Fascists like Putin?
Trotsky was a great man in his own way - not without fault (few of us are), but a great man.
He would weep to see what Putin's mouthpieces are saying in his name.
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Magpietothemax 
magpietothemax
Joined: 28 Apr 2013
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| Tannin wrote: | ^ What are the Trots doing in bed with criminal Fascists like Putin?
Trotsky was a great man in his own way - not without fault (few of us are), but a great man.
He would weep to see what Putin's mouthpieces are saying in his name. |
I will be blunt: you are an abject liar if you claim that the Trotskyists have any sympathy for Putin.
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David 
I dare you to try
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda
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| Magpietothemax wrote: | Just read the Wikipedia page you reference regarding this treaty, which was signed in 1997 and was unilaterally repudiated not by Russia but by the Ukrainian government in 2018. Clearly you have absolutely no understanding of what has happened in Ukraine over the last decade if you think that Ukraine "honoured this treaty in full" . Part of the treaty stipulated:
a "mutual commitment not to use its territory to harm the security of each other." After the Maidan coup in 2014, spearheaded by Russophobic fascists, who were then integrated into the military and state machinery, the US and other NATO countries began sending armaments and military hardware to Ukraine, as well and conducting training programs for the Ukrainian military. Combined with the xenophobic threats made towards the Russian ethnic population in Ukraine, the Russian government drew the only realistic conclusion: the Ukrainian government was being rearmed and trained by the US/NATO and posed a significant threat to Russia militarily.
It is pathetic how some immediately denounce as "Kremlin propaganda" any information which does not conform with the US propaganda that dominates the media.
Read this if you have an open mind:
https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2022/01/27/russ-j27.html |
Russian soldiers literally walked across the Ukrainian border to aid and arm separatists in 2014. Not in 2021. In 2014. It's laughable to say that it was Ukraine that breached the pact four years later.
I feel like I've written about this previously in this thread, but it bears repeating: it's a category error to talk about Ukrainian xenophobia towards Russians, because there is no coherent "Russian" identity in Ukraine. Ethnic Russians and Ukrainians are and always have been extremely integrated, and many in the eastern half of the country will have family in both countries. There are plenty of ethnic Russians who have been bombed by Russia in Kharkov (where my partner, who is ethnically Russian-Jewish and whose first language is Russian, was born) and Mariupol over the past twelve months, and these are places with significant Russian populations where separatist movements never got off the ground.
Where there has been oppression, though even this has been significantly overstated, is against Russian speakers. But this is again not about exclusive blocs of people, because the vast majority of people in Ukraine, regardless of "ethnicity", speak Russian and Ukrainian. Zelenskyy himself grew up speaking Russian. Ukrainian is his second language, and he's admitted to not even being fully proficient in it:
https://www.kyivpost.com/post/7264
Many at the WSWS and elsewhere want to paint the Ukrainian civil war as some kind of Israel/Palestine or Hutu/Tutsi situation with "Russians" being an oppressed minority. It's a fantasy, and a misreading of where the country's actual fault lines lie – but it plays into the hands of the Russian narrative of the Special Military Operation, in which they were riding in to save the "republics" that they helped to create to begin with.
More on this here:
https://mkaradjis.com/2023/06/15/ukraine-myths-used-to-justify-putins-terror
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Magpietothemax
magpietothemax
Joined: 28 Apr 2013
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| David wrote: | [
I feel like I've written about this previously in this thread, but it bears repeating: it's a category error to talk about Ukrainian xenophobia towards Russians, because there is no coherent "Russian" identity in Ukraine. Ethnic Russians and Ukrainians are and always have been extremely integrated, and many in the eastern half of the country will have family in both countries. There are plenty of ethnic Russians who have been bombed by Russia in Kharkov (where my partner, who is ethnically Russian-Jewish and whose first language is Russian, was born) and Mariupol over the past twelve months, and these are places with significant Russian populations where separatist movements never got off the ground.
Where there has been oppression, though even this has been significantly overstated, is against Russian speakers. But this is again not about exclusive blocs of people, because the vast majority of people in Ukraine, regardless of "ethnicity", speak Russian and Ukrainian. Zelenskyy himself grew up speaking Russian. Ukrainian is his second language, and he's admitted to not even being fully proficient in it:
https://www.kyivpost.com/post/7264
Many at the WSWS and elsewhere want to paint the Ukrainian civil war as some kind of Israel/Palestine or Hutu/Tutsi situation with "Russians" being an oppressed minority. It's a fantasy, and a misreading of where the country's actual fault lines lie – but it plays into the hands of the Russian narrative of the Special Military Operation, in which they were riding in to save the "republics" that they helped to create to begin with.
More on this here:
https://mkaradjis.com/2023/06/15/ukraine-myths-used-to-justify-putins-terror |
Yes, David, I agree, it is totally wrong to think that the Ukrainian population in general is anti-Russian.
The anti-Russian propaganda always came from the Ukrainian government itself, and its allies in fascist outfits such as the Azov Batallion.
After the Maidan coup, the new regime immediately declared Ukrainian the sole national language, although 20 percent of the population speak Russian primarily. The chief rabbi of Kiev urged Jews to leave the city, given the prominence of neo-Nazis in the Maidan uprising.
Quoted from wsws:
The coup regime in Kiev began to carry out an increasingly right-wing program, implementing drastic austerity measures aimed at the Ukrainian working class, and making threats of massacre when these measures sparked protests in eastern Ukraine, an area with close economic ties to Russia and largely populated by Russian-speaking people.
None of this is disputable.
Reference: https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2022/03/28/dphs-m28.html
By the way, you are quoting again that completely discredited academic Karadjis. In a previous post, I explained his history and why he should be ignored as a right wing provocateur. Your response was that you did not know who he was. Yet here you are again quoting him.
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Last edited by Magpietothemax on Fri Sep 22, 2023 12:20 am; edited 2 times in total |
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pietillidie
Joined: 07 Jan 2005
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Great find, David. Most of that blog post, including its survey data, aligns with what I've picked indirectly from both snippets over time and detailed analyses, and even nights at the pub with Ukrainians before effing Brexit (one of the underrated reasons, I'd suggest, that the UK has such an intuitive affinity with Ukraine, despite the overt Eastern European and pan-Slavic racism of the Brexit movement).
Malignant narcissists co-opting life-or-death matters to feed their bottomless emptiness and desire is one of the biggest problems we face today. It's happening problem after problem, issue after issue, such that every issue is at risk of triggering something far worse. The bigger and more critical the problem, the better for narcissistic vampirism by definition.
Actual, complex, distant, seriously high-risk situations are hard enough to get at without two sets of shrieking nutcases in your ear.
And this:
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David
I dare you to try
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda
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| Magpietothemax wrote: | | By the way, you are quoting again that completely discredited academic Karadjis. In a previous post, I explained his history and why he should be ignored as a right wing provocateur. Your response was that you did not know who he was. Yet here you are again quoting him. |
I didn’t and still don’t, really, but happened to see that blog post today on Facebook from a Ukrainian-American leftist I follow (he grew up in the same city as my partner, and is also Jewish, so I’ve always read his posts with interest). I thought it articulated my understanding of the situation pretty clearly.
But since you mentioned it, I googled Karadjis further and found that he’s previously written for the Socialist Alternative’s Red Flag magazine – I know you don’t like them, but they’re not exactly right-wing! Here’s his bio:
| Quote: | | Michael Karadjis has been active in left-wing politics in this country for some 28 years, beginning as a high school student who came out in solidarity with the struggle of the Vietnamese people against US imperialist aggression. He has also been involved in support for the struggles of the Palestinian people and against the genocidal western sanctions on Iraq. He was active in left-wing politics in Greece during parts of the late 1980s and 1990s, from whence arose his connection to the issues in the Balkans. He has a Master of Letters in history from the University of New England, Armidale, where his thesis was on the Yugoslav issue. |
This is, I must say, something I find difficult about WSWS and the SEP, who I’ve at times wanted to be more closely involved with because of their staunch support of Julian Assange. Even if we’re not aligned on Syria or Ukraine, I still suspect that I agree with far more than I disagree with your positions. But the WSWS way seems to be to castigate everyone who comes from a different socialist faction as the "fake left" or right-wing. It makes me despair for any kind of broader left-wing movement in this country when there’s this level of infighting between already small groups. When the exact same joke from Life of Brian about the Judean People’s Front can be told fifty years later, we’re in a bad place.
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pietillidie
Joined: 07 Jan 2005
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^That's hilarious. I didn't even consider for half a second who the hell the author is because I simply don't care; the only criterion is that what he says is sensible in the context of the credible information, data, logic and experience.
And there's MttMax, fretting over the chap's doctrinal purity according to whatever sects mill about the Holy World Narcissist Web Site [TM].
The cringeworthy stuff that exercises cult members. Do these people have so little world experience and self-awareness, they can't even detect that they're as satirically cringeworthy as the most in-bred evangelical church ever dreamed up?
You could swap out the word 'baptist' for 'socialist' and create a site called Landover Socialist.
There's absolutely nothing to learn in that entire weirdo world unless you're studying the pscyhopathology of cults. All those joules of passion burned to create ever-finer taxonomies of purity to avoid the self in the mirror and manufacture a frisson of self-efficacy and acceptance. MAGA must be green with envy of the avid devotion to self-avoidance.
People, if that's your thing, get counselling, FFS. Life will be over before you realise that mummy and daddy's approval is simply not out there somewhere.
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Help Nick's: http://www.magpies.net/nick/bb/fundraising.htm |
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Magpietothemax
magpietothemax
Joined: 28 Apr 2013
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^ You seem upset
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pietillidie
Joined: 07 Jan 2005
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Magpietothemax
magpietothemax
Joined: 28 Apr 2013
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| pietillidie wrote: | | I didn't even consider for half a second who the hell the author is because I simply don't care; ; the only criterion is that what he says is sensible in the context of the credible information |
Translation: you will accept any information as long as it confirms your own preestablished views.
Anything that contradicts your preestablished views must not merely be rejected automatically, but condemned as "cultist". Reflects not just a closed mind, but extreme nervousness.
In answer to your question as to what might help, anti-anxiety medications might be of assistance.
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Free Julian Assange!!
Ice in the veins |
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pietillidie
Joined: 07 Jan 2005
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^But the bit you quoted completely contradicts that:
| pietillidie wrote: | | ...the only criterion is that what he says is sensible in the context of the credible information |
So, it's clear I will accept any credible contrary information and incorporate it into a model for understanding the conflict and canvassing potential solutions. Absolutely anything credible.
That's why I've quoted a wide range of information already, repeating the caveat that I'm still not happy with the information we have so far.
Your quoting of the field equivalent of The Watchtower does nothing to convince anyone you have the requisite experience and learning to simply 'know' these things intuitively.
What do you expect people to do? Trust you and the notoriously unemployable, unqualified, ill-disciplined crazies you quote, sans professional track record and history of accountability, contrary to credible mainstream views, in the absence of proof, data and method, and in contradiction of the basic fact that Russia has invaded Ukraine, because you insist that they're right?
The normal starting point is the scope of basic and credible mainstream information, data, models and views first. Both David and myself have quoted a wide range of those, for which you're yet to account.
Simply crying 'American conspiracy' doesn't do away with the recent history of Eastern Europe and Ukraine's neighbours; Yanukovych's failure to ratify EU Association Agreement and the Euromaidan protests; Yanukovych's monstrous corruption and Russian lackey status; Ukrainian opinion as we know it to date; Russia's actual explicit policy and Putin's recently reiterated imperialist desires and racist views of Ukrainian history; the clear fact that absolutely no one could invade fortress nuclear Russia; Russian bullying and blackmail of the region and global economy; the views of Ukraine's Eastern European neighbbours and the EU; and everything we know about the very simple reality that Russia violently invaded Ukraine.
Yet there you are, dismissing all of that reality, as if Ukraine has no voice, rights and will, and Ukrainians are lesser dimwits, as Putin holds.
Once you've properly accounted for that basic reality, and then canvassed all of the credible mainstream views on the matter, then you are justified suggesting alternative models, using that credible information and data.
But you've skipped all of that analysis and consideration, and jumped straight to the conspiratorial lunatic fringe, majoring in nonsense and part-truth, and dismissing the vast scope of mainstream, credible views across a number of well-developed specialities, with a wave of your hand.
It's not that hard: when you're not a specialist, and you don't have that much field experience, start with the basic facts first, then move to the most credible specialists and sources, compile them, analyse them, and weigh them against the experience that credible others and then you yourself have, if indeed you have such experience, and work out from there.
Your approach is the equivalent of jumping to experimental therapy or faith healing before you've even considered and tested mainline treatments. Or fervently dismissing climate science and the credible climate consensus as if you know better when you can't even pass the high school maths to get into a general science degree to even begin to specialise in climate science.
No one in any respected professional or organisational context works like that, and for good reason.
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Help Nick's: http://www.magpies.net/nick/bb/fundraising.htm |
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Magpietothemax
magpietothemax
Joined: 28 Apr 2013
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| pietillidie wrote: | That's hilarious. I didn't even consider for half a second who the hell the author is because I simply don't care;
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These words are enough to let me know how useless it is to debate you. You don’t care about the source of the comments you decide to integrate into your “knowledge bank”. This tells me you would be willing to use the quotes of Adolf Hitler, Benito Mussolini or…dare I say it…Donald Trump, if they confirmed your instantaneous impressions of current reality. You yourself said it: you don’t care who the hell the author is.
| pietillidie wrote: | | ...the only criterion is that what he says is sensible in the context of the credible information . |
Who decides what is “credible information” ? you of course, based on your predetermined bias. Your ideas are based on your news sources, which are clearly mainstream capitalist media (BBC is one I remember that you mentioned from your previous posts, no doubt you have others)
| pietillidie wrote: | | ....That's why I've quoted a wide range of information already, repeating the caveat that I'm still not happy with the information we have so far. |
No you haven’t. You have merely quoted information from capitalist media and “business associates” (ie those influenced by capitalist media)
| pietillidie wrote: | | What do you expect people to do? Trust you and the notoriously unemployable, unqualified, ill-disciplined crazies you quote, sans professional track record and history of accountability, contrary to credible mainstream views, in the absence of proof, data and method, and in contradiction of the basic fact that Russia has invaded Ukraine, because you insist that they're right?]. |
Before I was “ cultist”, now I am unemployable. Next, I will be “deplorable”. You are very similar to Hilary Clinton in your outlook. Anyone who is not agreeing with your immediate political agenda is to be condemned as a worthless vermin. Hilary Clinton is a war criminal btw. She was happy to demolish Libyan society. “ We came, we saw, we killed him!” Yet neither she, nor Biden, nor any Democrat politician has taken any action to imprison Donald Trump for the real crime he has committed: attempting a fascist coup to overthrow the US government. Donald Trump is your bete noire, you constantly mention him as an existential bogey man. Yet you never seem to ponder why he is still running around free in the US to spout his fascist propaganda, and why Biden has stated many times that he wants a “strong Republican Party” - despite the fact that many current members of the Republican party supported Trump's coup attempt, and still claim that the election was stolen.
| pietillidie wrote: | | Simply crying 'American conspiracy' doesn't do away with the recent history of Eastern Europe …. |
Just shows how little you understand what I am writing. I have never referred to a “US conspiracy”. I have referred only to the US as the dominant imperialist nation, which is now turning to militarism in an attempt to defend its fast declining economic hegemony. This is not a “conspiracy theory” – unless you are calling Marxism a “conspiracy theory”. If that is what you are doing, then you should acknowledge that.
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pietillidie
Joined: 07 Jan 2005
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^And still we await for you to deal with the known, credible basic facts and data.
And wait.
And wait some more.
And we know you won't, because it's too hard for pea-brained Marxism to cope with details when you can simply shout 'capitalism'.
No one cares about cringeworthy Marxist slogans anymore because we have far too much information and recorded experience to accept that sort of rubbish now.
Even a movement as clueless as poststructuralism rightly pulled marxism and Marxianism to pieces decades ago, correctly arguing that totalising grand narrative merely strengthens power through a mutually dependent inescapable totalisation.
And poststructuralism was right, because that's how apocalyptic cults work. Multiple disciplines from social psychology and religion to psychiatry and psychobiology have understood this malignant trap for decades from a very different perspective.
But you haven't even engaged poststructuralism, just as you haven't engaged business, the economy, cognitive science and psychobiology. Hence, all you have for people is the violent uprising or nihilism of an apocalyptic essentialism that demands everyone waves away detailed information and facts with totalisations such as 'capitalism'.
That's why you won't address counter critique; parrot Putin's deranged talking points; and dismiss Ukrainians if not the whol of Europe as morally corrupt, identitiless beings incapable of independent thought and will.
It's pitiful to see a grown adult resort to this level of nihilistic misanthropy in 2023 and hoodwinking given the unprecedented access to learning, travel and the economy you now have compared to most of human history. Pitiful.
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In the end the rain comes down, washes clean the streets of a blue sky town.
Help Nick's: http://www.magpies.net/nick/bb/fundraising.htm
Last edited by pietillidie on Tue Sep 26, 2023 12:44 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Magpietothemax
magpietothemax
Joined: 28 Apr 2013
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| pietillidie wrote: | | ^And still we await for you to deal with the known, credible basic facts and data. |
I have supplied plenty of facts, and more importantly, a scientific analysis.
You have chosen to ignore it, based on your prejudices, and instead write incoherent diatribes of nonsense and abuse.
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Free Julian Assange!!
Ice in the veins |
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pietillidie
Joined: 07 Jan 2005
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