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David 
I dare you to try
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda
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| Post subject: AFLM and the politics of symbols |  |
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Not sure this is the right forum for this, but given the political connotations I guess the VPT is as good a place as any.
https://www.theage.com.au/sport/afl/afl-should-seriously-think-about-changing-the-men-s-league-to-aflm-20210929-p58voz.html
| Quote: | | However the W in AFLW also suggests the women’s league is the variant. Implicit in that name is that the women’s league is the spin-off. That AFL is the main one, the real one. |
Sorry, but ... isn't that basically the case? The national women's league exists in no small part due to the goodwill of the AFL and its clubs in wanting to get it off the ground from scratch, in full knowledge that this new national league – which, let's be honest, is clearly secondary to the men's league in terms of skill level, public support, viewership and profitability – benefits immensely from the brand of the men's game and significant efforts from the league to bolster the women's comp in concept and practice. Its summer-to-early-autumn scheduling ensures that it does not compete with the AFL proper for ratings in any way, and neither will it be in a position to in the conceivable future. To put it bluntly, the AFLW is not self-sustaining; it sits on a house of cards. So to go from that status quo to begin demanding equality in various respects just a few years later seems a little like biting the hand that feeds.
Frankly, I don't think it matters all that much if the men's AFL competition does get rebranded as AFLM and I think it'd be pretty silly to get wound up about it. But I think the calls for this to happen present an opportunity to think about purely symbolic change, what ends it serves and why it might be a mistake to pursue it as a goal.
As the writer continues, immediately after the quoted passage above:
| Quote: | | Changing AFL to AFLM would make a powerful statement that both leagues are of equal importance. |
This sentence distils the thought process behind symbolic politics, essentially: the leagues are not of equal importance in most conceivable respects (or at least certainly not treated as such by most fans), but, the thinking goes, changing the name of the men's competition can make them so.
But reality simply doesn't work like that: calling the AFL "AFLM" will not increase AFLW skills and quality of matches, will not draw increased numbers of talented sportswomen to the competition, and will not create bigger fan bases. What it will do is kill off some of the aforementioned goodwill, because ordinary people tend to be happy to embrace or at least tolerate a new thing when it's additional and doesn't impose anything on the traditions they value; but when it requires a change in something they care about (in this case, a symbolic rebranding of the league), that's when you supercharge "it's PC gone mad"–style backlash and all the attendant hostility. Essentially, women's football becomes just another pawn in the culture wars (a situation that I think it has mostly managed to avoid so far), stymying any organic growth beyond a subset of those who sit on the 'pro-' side of the argument. The choice of whether or not to watch it becomes a politicised one, and superficial political support doesn't necessarily translate all that well to high attendance numbers.
Later in the piece, the author describes the long-term goal of AFLW:
| Quote: | | If utopia is a full 18-team professional women’s league, just like the men’s, shouldn’t the names reflect that ambition? |
"Utopia" is probably a good way to put it, because it's going to take a lot of work to reach that goal. So rather than putting the cart before the horse and trying to make equality happen by tweaking the symbolic markers that suggest otherwise, why not focus on actually getting to that point by doing the hard work of building the league and striving for self-sustainability? That's much, much harder than lobbying for an extra letter in a football league name, but I fear we live in an age in which symbols rule, and in which people are far too easily seduced by easy options – ready to paint over a sign and congratulate themselves on a job well done rather than doing anything to change what the sign was connoting in the first place.
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stui magpie 
Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.
Joined: 03 May 2005
Location: In flagrante delicto
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In the USA, the Mens Basketball competition is the NBA. The womens competition, which is a thriving professional competition that makes the AFLW look like a bush league is the WNBA. The WNBA has been in place since 1996-7.
My understanding is the WNBA has it's own TV and sponsorship deals and isn't reliant on good will or funding from the NBA although they are endorsed by them.
Trying to change the name of the AFL competition to artificially boost the standing of the AFLW is utter wankery IMHO
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Every dead body on Mt Everest was once a highly motivated person, so maybe just calm the **** down. |
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think positive
Side By Side
Joined: 30 Jun 2005
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Couldn’t agree more!
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You cant fix stupid, turns out you cant quarantine it either! |
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eddiesmith 
Lets get ready to Rumble
Joined: 23 Nov 2004
Location: Lexus Centre
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Even cricket you have The Ashes and the Women's Ashes. No one calls test cricket Mens test cricket but Women's cricket is just that.
It's a simple reality of life and the tradition that's come before them. But the whole problem with society is the need for change and as soon as they succeed in one area, they move onto something else and they get to a stage where they start inventing issues.
However, we've seen with so many issues lately if someone does make enough noise, it will change... |
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Pies4shaw 
pies4shaw
Joined: 08 Oct 2007
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| I think at some stage it becomes important to ask whether men should even be allowed to play sports. |
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think positive
Side By Side
Joined: 30 Jun 2005
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Only if they have asex change
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You cant fix stupid, turns out you cant quarantine it either! |
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What'sinaname
Joined: 29 May 2010
Location: Living rent free
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| Pies4shaw wrote: | | I think at some stage it becomes important to ask whether men should even be allowed to play sports. |
All sports should just be open. No more mens, womens events. Just open to any and all gender to compete fairly on equal terms. |
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stui magpie
Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.
Joined: 03 May 2005
Location: In flagrante delicto
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Or people should just stop giving oxygen to fringe farquits
_________________
Every dead body on Mt Everest was once a highly motivated person, so maybe just calm the **** down. |
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eddiesmith
Lets get ready to Rumble
Joined: 23 Nov 2004
Location: Lexus Centre
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| What'sinaname wrote: | | Pies4shaw wrote: | | I think at some stage it becomes important to ask whether men should even be allowed to play sports. |
All sports should just be open. No more mens, womens events. Just open to any and all gender to compete fairly on equal terms. |
Oh god did you see the outrage when that happened in a school event in QLD this week? The outrage has hit huge levels... |
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Dark Beanie
Joined: 06 Feb 2004
Location: A galaxy far, far away.
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think positive
Side By Side
Joined: 30 Jun 2005
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thats disgraceful. there are so many mixed teams, there is plenty of room for inclusion, id go $£$%^%%$ beserk if i was coach of that girls team.
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You cant fix stupid, turns out you cant quarantine it either! |
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David
I dare you to try
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda
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Interesting. I would have thought that, if the issue is lack of avenues for boys to compete, the answer would be mixed teams (say, a max of one or two boys per team) rather than concentrating them all in one. But I can’t say I’m particularly familiar with the backstory here.
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All watched over by machines of loving grace |
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Dark Beanie
Joined: 06 Feb 2004
Location: A galaxy far, far away.
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Another option would be to have the boys play but not for the title ie. play in the rounds but the female teams play the finals.
Mixed teams is an option. At state level it might give more players (both male & female) the opportunity to play if there was another comp.
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If you are foolish enough to be contented, don't show it, but just grumble with the rest. - Jerome K Jerome |
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stui magpie
Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.
Joined: 03 May 2005
Location: In flagrante delicto
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Letting an all male team compete in what was essentially a female competition was stupid and the outcome, predictable.
Back to the subject of naming,
Golf. The mens tour is the PGA, the womens the LPGA.
Tennis. Mens is the APT, womens is the WTA.
All international sports with governing bodies. The men were their first (as with the AFL) the womens body has the gender inclusion as they came later.
In both cases the womens body's are completely independent and unreliant on the mens body for sponsorship, scheduling,broadcast rights and prize money and they do very well.
The AFLW is a subsidised competition in it's infancy. Concentrate on making a product that people want to watch and that attracts revenue first, worry about virtue signalling later
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Every dead body on Mt Everest was once a highly motivated person, so maybe just calm the **** down. |
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