A Grundy thread
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Mr Miyagi
Joined: 14 Sep 2018
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| And there were at least half a dozen blatant jumper holds at centre bounces that weren’t paid to our mids in the first half. What hope do you have? |
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Pies4shaw 
pies4shaw
Joined: 08 Oct 2007
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| Big T wrote: | I think we are just discussing different things. Grundy is a key part of the team, agree. But he doesn't make a difference to warrant 10% of the salary cap for the next 7 years. You yourself said that if we had cotchin and Martin we would dominate with grundy. Agree. But we can't afford them because grundy and DE goey have taken the Cap space and we have traded away all of our decent picks for players no longer with us.
It's a debacle and grundy has a role in that by demanding more money than he is worth and that is undeniable. |
I don't think the point about his money is right, though. Gawn is on the same money and Grundy is a much better footballer. As I pointed out recently, Witts is on $650 K - and you wouldn't trade 2 of Witts for Grundy. Even if you said you didn't want a ruckman on the list at all, you'd still have to have a talented player to replace him. It isn't like you're going to get an established A-grader, anywhere on the field, for under $750,000.
I think Grundy's an easy target as "million dollar man". We can talk at the margins about whether he should be getting, say, the last $300,000 a year - or whatever figure you wish - I just don't see how, with the poor-quality players we have on the list, the Club should be anywhere near the salary cap merely because of that. We have been playing several AFL-standard players short in the team for years (including 2018) and it beggars belief that we could have a salary cap problem with that cattle. It just isn't because we play Grundy a couple of hundred thousand "overs", if that's what it is.
It's important to appreciate that, as things stand, Grundy is the only payer at Collingwood who is a top-end, consistently-performing footballer who is on the right side of 30. I believe that our real salary cap problem was created by chasing a premiership to which we mistakenly thought we were close when, in truth, we got beaten by a pretty average team after taking the favourite by surprise the previous week.
Maybe the Club should have passed on Grundy and said, "No, we just can't afford that" but it made a judgement that it couldn't let him go. That's not his fault. He continues to turn up and do everything he can. If it was a poor call, shouldn't that be in a discussion about the football department?
Collingwood doesn't lose because Grundy gets 54 hitouts (21 to advantage) and has 28 disposals etc - it loses because we don't have any A-grade midfielders with the close-in ball-handling skills to take advantage, save for Pendlebury.
Not long before Grundy arrived, another ruckman had a 53 hitout, 14 disposal outing in a losing game involving Collingwood - despite his side winning the hitouts 59 to 29. Our response? Recruit him at the end of that year and win a flag the following season. Of course, he had Swan (141 clearances), Ball (117), Pendlebury (97), Wellingham (87), Didak (67) etc to use the ball he got out. We just don't have players of that class around the contest - and we certainly don't have the next layer of outside class (Sidebottom, Thomas, Johnson and Beams) to help out.
In fact, in 2011, Collingwood only won 826 hitouts but won 1,025 clearances. We just lack that ability to win the ball often enough when it isn't provided on a plate. Good midfields do. |
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Rosolino_Leone
Joined: 22 Mar 2021
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| Pies4shaw wrote: | | Big T wrote: | I think we are just discussing different things. Grundy is a key part of the team, agree. But he doesn't make a difference to warrant 10% of the salary cap for the next 7 years. You yourself said that if we had cotchin and Martin we would dominate with grundy. Agree. But we can't afford them because grundy and DE goey have taken the Cap space and we have traded away all of our decent picks for players no longer with us.
It's a debacle and grundy has a role in that by demanding more money than he is worth and that is undeniable. |
I don't think the point about his money is right, though. Gawn is on the same money and Grundy is a much better footballer. As I pointed out recently, Witts is on $650 K - and you wouldn't trade 2 of Witts for Grundy. Even if you said you didn't want a ruckman on the list at all, you'd still have to have a talented player to replace him. It isn't like you're going to get an established A-grader, anywhere on the field, for under $750,000.
I think Grundy's an easy target as "million dollar man". We can talk at the margins about whether he should be getting, say, the last $300,000 a year - or whatever figure you wish - I just don't see how, with the poor-quality players we have on the list, the Club should be anywhere near the salary cap merely because of that. We have been playing several AFL-standard players short in the team for years (including 2018) and it beggars belief that we could have a salary cap problem with that cattle. It just isn't because we play Grundy a couple of hundred thousand "overs", if that's what it is.
It's important to appreciate that, as things stand, Grundy is the only payer at Collingwood who is a top-end, consistently-performing footballer who is on the right side of 30. I believe that our real salary cap problem was created by chasing a premiership to which we mistakenly thought we were close when, in truth, we got beaten by a pretty average team after taking the favourite by surprise the previous week.
Maybe the Club should have passed on Grundy and said, "No, we just can't afford that" but it made a judgement that it couldn't let him go. That's not his fault. He continues to turn up and do everything he can. If it was a poor call, shouldn't that be in a discussion about the football department?
Collingwood doesn't lose because Grundy gets 54 hitouts (21 to advantage) and has 28 disposals etc - it loses because we don't have any A-grade midfielders with the close-in ball-handling skills to take advantage, save for Pendlebury.
Not long before Grundy arrived, another ruckman had a 53 hitout, 14 disposal outing in a losing game involving Collingwood - despite his side winning the hitouts 59 to 29. Our response? Recruit him at the end of that year and win a flag the following season. Of course, he had Swan (141 clearances), Ball (117), Pendlebury (97), Wellingham (87), Didak (67) etc to use the ball he got out. We just don't have players of that class around the contest - and we certainly don't have the next layer of outside class (Sidebottom, Thomas, Johnson and Beams) to help out.
In fact, in 2011, Collingwood only won 826 hitouts but won 1,025 clearances. We just lack that ability to win the ball often enough when it isn't provided on a plate. Good midfields do. |
We are 1 'elite' clearence player away from going places.
- Ben Cunnington must not be overlooked in the off-season, he will be the only elite clearence player available. If we want a significant upgrade surely we need to consider Cunnington. However I feel the club will target a more Collingwood type of plaer in Dyson Heppel
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“You can’t head down to Smith St and buy confidence, can you? There’s no confidence shop.” |
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Big T
Joined: 18 Oct 2003
Location: Torino, Italy
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Goldstein has more than double the hit outs of the dogs and they trail by 100 points. Most over rated stat in the league and ruckman shouldn't get AF points for hitouts.
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Buon Giorno |
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The Boy Who Cried Wolf
Joined: 26 Sep 2013
Location: We prefer free speech - you know it's right
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| Ronnie McKeowns boots wrote: | | Cunnington as Captain Coach; you know it makes sense! |
I hear we need a new president as well, three birds one stone.
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All Aboard!! Choo Choo!!! |
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Rosolino_Leone
Joined: 22 Mar 2021
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| The Boy Who Cried Wolf wrote: | | Ronnie McKeowns boots wrote: | | Cunnington as Captain Coach; you know it makes sense! |
I hear we need a new president as well, three birds one stone. |
All Hail King Cund
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“You can’t head down to Smith St and buy confidence, can you? There’s no confidence shop.” |
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Rosolino_Leone
Joined: 22 Mar 2021
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| Big T wrote: | | Goldstein has more than double the hit outs of the dogs and they trail by 100 points. Most over rated stat in the league and ruckman shouldn't get AF points for hitouts. |
Disagree
If you have a good ruckman ( Grundy is very good )
And the right pieces around him ( We are still missing a 2nd clearence player )
Then Ruckman are very important
Yes a supreme midfield like the Dogs can hunt the ball without a Ruckman if need be and IMO the Doggies have the best midfield in the comp, However a good 1-2-3 combination should be able to dominate anyone including the Doggies ( Grundy, Adams, Cunnington )
Even at 30 years of age Cunnington is a much better clearence midfielder than Degoey or Adams.
Today with the help of Goldstein, Cunnington was able to accumulate 9 clearences.
The scoreboard discrepency was because without Cunnington the Kangas have no one else to drive the ball fwd, and a huge gap in overall class
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“You can’t head down to Smith St and buy confidence, can you? There’s no confidence shop.” |
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K
Joined: 09 Sep 2011
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| BEAMER09 wrote: | | Dave The Man wrote: | BOG in 1st Half Tonight
Great to see the Dominate Grundy Back |
Yes dominant - but against who? |
Yes, his next challenge is to repeat it against 1st or 2nd rucks.
And his 2nd half was not great. e.g. With about 10 1/2 minutes to go in Q4, he whacked a centre bounce straight to Bailey for a Brissy clearance, with no Pie anywhere near. Dunno how folks can blame Grundy's teammates for stuff like that.
In the 1st half, Brissy left Tyler B. unmanned around the stoppages. That makes it easy to get effective hit outs.
afltables says before this match Tom Fullarton had played three AFL games for a grand total of 7 hit outs, 6 of them against Geebung. Celebrating dominance against that is desperation. |
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K
Joined: 09 Sep 2011
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| Pies4shaw wrote: | ...
I don't think the point about his money is right, though. Gawn is on the same money and Grundy is a much better footballer. ... |
Fact check:
Gawn's salary was claimed by the tabloid to be $900k to $950k.
Gawn responded:
“I’m not in Melbourne obviously so I’m not reading the Herald Sun, but my lovely wife sent me a photo of what was supposedly my wage and said ‘you didn’t tell me you were on this much’.
“And I said ‘I didn’t tell you that because they have got my wage wrong by upwards of $250,000. Which seems like very lazy reporting to (me)."
So unless he's lying he's on under $750k.
And no one is claiming that is for 7 years.
If you think it's fair to call that "on the same money", please donate to me $250k a year for the next 7 years. It's "the same money" as zero. |
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K
Joined: 09 Sep 2011
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| PyreneesPie wrote: | ...
Depends on what direction the ball is punched out I suppose. Last round, it was an absolute delight to see Nic Nat's hit outs going straight into the hands of an Eagles mid, running forward. He gave a master class in showing how it's done. |
Did you watch the WC-Port game last night, PPie?
From what I saw, NicNat put on a clinic. Richardson & Darcy in commentary were raving. If he plays like that the rest of the year he's a certainty to be AA ruckman again.
I reckon the Pies should watch vid of all of NicNat's centre bounces. We all should. Watching Grundy for years has probably narrowed our worldview about what's possible in the ruck. (Maybe that's why it's so gobsmacking watching NicNat do his thing.) In 5-10 years, the industry will probably expect all ruckmen to be able to hit out in 360 degrees. They'll be training for it at TAC level. |
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PyreneesPie 
PyreneesPie
Joined: 22 Aug 2014
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| K wrote: | | PyreneesPie wrote: | ...
Depends on what direction the ball is punched out I suppose. Last round, it was an absolute delight to see Nic Nat's hit outs going straight into the hands of an Eagles mid, running forward. He gave a master class in showing how it's done. |
Did you watch the WC-Port game last night, PPie?
From what I saw, NicNat put on a clinic. Richardson & Darcy in commentary were raving. If he plays like that the rest of the year he's a certainty to be AA ruckman again.
I reckon the Pies should watch vid of all of NicNat's centre bounces. We all should. Watching Grundy for years has probably narrowed our worldview about what's possible in the ruck. (Maybe that's why it's so gobsmacking watching NicNat do his thing.) In 5-10 years, the industry will probably expect all ruckmen to be able to hit out in 360 degrees. They'll be training for it at TAC level. |
Yes K, I did. It's certainly an absolute pleasure to watch Nic Nat do what he does!  It's quite extraordinary. That's how a ruckman can directly affect the outcome of a ruck contest.
Anything other than a "direct hit" like that is really left to the ground level players to sort out. That's where Grundy is of the most value to us I reckon - switching to a ruck rover as soon as the ball is released from an indeterminate ruck contest. |
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Pies2016
Joined: 12 Sep 2014
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| PyreneesPie wrote: | | K wrote: | | PyreneesPie wrote: | ...
Depends on what direction the ball is punched out I suppose. Last round, it was an absolute delight to see Nic Nat's hit outs going straight into the hands of an Eagles mid, running forward. He gave a master class in showing how it's done. |
Did you watch the WC-Port game last night, PPie?
From what I saw, NicNat put on a clinic. Richardson & Darcy in commentary were raving. If he plays like that the rest of the year he's a certainty to be AA ruckman again.
I reckon the Pies should watch vid of all of NicNat's centre bounces. We all should. Watching Grundy for years has probably narrowed our worldview about what's possible in the ruck. (Maybe that's why it's so gobsmacking watching NicNat do his thing.) In 5-10 years, the industry will probably expect all ruckmen to be able to hit out in 360 degrees. They'll be training for it at TAC level. |
Yes K, I did. It's certainly an absolute pleasure to watch Nic Nat do what he does! It's quite extraordinary. That's how a ruckman can directly affect the outcome of a ruck contest.
Anything other than a "direct hit" like that is really left to the ground level players to sort out. That's where Grundy is of the most value to us I reckon - switching to a ruck rover as soon as the ball is released from an indeterminate ruck contest. |
I felt the one sided victory over Port said more about Port ON THE DAY than it did Nic Nats dominance. To be fair, I’m a Nic Nat fan and he was dominant but if he is so good out of the middle, then why don’t they smash very good teams like that every week ?
Ports pressure was non existent. You will frequently concede first touch out of the middle against the Eagles but the plan is to hunt their clearance players into coughing it up before they take possession on the outside ( easier said than done )
Port simply didn’t turn up and they hardly touched the ball in the first half. Again, I thought Nic Nat was very good but for mine, it was Port who made the Eagles look great rather than the Eagles ruckman.
Sometimes you win because the opposition were poor rather than the winners were anything special. I just thought that was one of those days. |
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PyreneesPie
PyreneesPie
Joined: 22 Aug 2014
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| Pies2016 wrote: | | PyreneesPie wrote: |
Yes K, I did. It's certainly an absolute pleasure to watch Nic Nat do what he does! It's quite extraordinary. That's how a ruckman can directly affect the outcome of a ruck contest.
Anything other than a "direct hit" like that is really left to the ground level players to sort out. That's where Grundy is of the most value to us I reckon - switching to a ruck rover as soon as the ball is released from an indeterminate ruck contest. |
I felt the one sided victory over Port said more about Port ON THE DAY than it did Nic Nats dominance. To be fair, I’m a Nic Nat fan and he was dominant but if he is so good out of the middle, then why don’t they smash very good teams like that every week?
. |
Sigh. If you read all of what I wrote above Pies 2016 and my previous posts, you would see that I acknowledge both the role of the ruckman and the mids on the deck as crucial elements in winning clearances. The best a ruckman can do is deliver a "direct hit" to one of his mids to give them the best chance of clearing it. Nic Nat does this extremely well - better than any other ruckman in the game, at the moment. When such a hit out results in a clearance, it looks so clean and so easy, that it's a joy to watch. Yes? You would agree?
I didn't suggest that Nic Nat's dominance won the Eagles the game. I was simply admiring his ruck work, when he can deliver the ball straight to a mid, which he does more often than most ( but not always).  Naturally, whether a ruckman's work results in a clearance is up to the respective mids of both sides. All the ruckman can do is give them the best chance possible. |
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Pies2016
Joined: 12 Sep 2014
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^ ^. ^
P P, there’s no argument from me that he taps to advantage better than anyone we have seen for a while. That’s also a credit to the way the Eagles mids set up. ( Yeo still didn’t play )
Nic Nat put on a clinic and with the combined lack of pressure from the Port mids, it was the perfect storm for a hiding. Nic Nat got the ball rolling and the Eagles mids dined out on Ports lack of pressure around the ball. |
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K
Joined: 09 Sep 2011
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| Pies2016 wrote: | ...
I felt the one sided victory over Port said more about Port ON THE DAY than it did Nic Nats dominance. To be fair, I’m a Nic Nat fan and he was dominant but if he is so good out of the middle, then why don’t they smash very good teams like that every week ?
... |
Must be weaknesses elsewhere. (And how much game time is NicNat playing nowadays?) Sometimes the weakness is not even in a position or area of the ground. e.g. last year, WC stuffed up their season with their pathetic start in the QLD hub.
If we judge an individual's performance by the team's, then what about in the late 80s when every week Plugger would kick 10 goals and St. K. would lose? (IIRC when Ron McKeown kept him to "only" 5 goals, people were giving RM best on ground.  ) |
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