 |
|
|
| View previous topic :: View next topic |
| Author |
Message |
Magpietothemax 
magpietothemax
Joined: 28 Apr 2013
|
| Post subject: |  |
|
| stui magpie wrote: | Oh Dear. You really do believe that, don't you.
|
Yes. It happened once before, and it can happen again.
Contrary to what you think, the conditions for it are becoming more and more favourable.
_________________
Free Julian Assange!!
Ice in the veins |
|
|
|
 |
David 
I dare you to try
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda
|
| Post subject: | |
|
| pietillidie wrote: | | And there you are still using the term 'genocide', even though it means Levantines killing themselves. |
Sorry if it's not the main point of your post, but I had to jump on this – what's the difference between "Levantines killing themselves" vs "Rwandans killing themselves" vs "Balkan peoples killing themselves" vs "Germanic peoples killing themselves"?
It's quite unlike you to define a term like genocide in such a fundamentalist way, so please correct me if I've misunderstood. Surely any debate over whether or not the assault on Gaza constitutes genocide is a question of the extent and far-reaching quality of the atrocity, not the ethnic similarity or otherwise of the participants.
_________________
All watched over by machines of loving grace |
|
|
|
|
stui magpie 
Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.
Joined: 03 May 2005
Location: In flagrante delicto
|
| Post subject: | |
|
FWIW, the UN definition of Genocide is
"To constitute genocide, there must be a proven intent on the part of perpetrators to physically destroy a national, ethnical, racial or religious group. Cultural destruction does not suffice, nor does an intention to simply disperse a group"
Based on that, what's happening in Gaza (although a long way from acceptable) isn't Genocide and there's no reference to the perps and victims being of similar heritage.
_________________
Every dead body on Mt Everest was once a highly motivated person, so maybe just calm the **** down. |
|
|
|
|
Magpietothemax
magpietothemax
Joined: 28 Apr 2013
|
| Post subject: | |
|
| stui magpie wrote: |
Based on that, what's happening in Gaza (although a long way from acceptable) isn't Genocide and there's no reference to the perps and victims being of similar heritage. |
...and how did you reach this conclusion? Are we to just agree with you, because that is your opinion?
Even the pro-imperialist ICC doesn't agree with you. In their judgement, they declared that there were grounds to believe that Israel was carrying out genocide in Gaza.
_________________
Free Julian Assange!!
Ice in the veins |
|
|
|
|
Magpietothemax
magpietothemax
Joined: 28 Apr 2013
|
| Post subject: | |
|
| David wrote: | | pietillidie wrote: | | And there you are still using the term 'genocide', even though it means Levantines killing themselves. |
Sorry if it's not the main point of your post, but I had to jump on this – what's the difference between "Levantines killing themselves" vs "Rwandans killing themselves" vs "Balkan peoples killing themselves" vs "Germanic peoples killing themselves"?
It's quite unlike you to define a term like genocide in such a fundamentalist way, so please correct me if I've misunderstood. Surely any debate over whether or not the assault on Gaza constitutes genocide is a question of the extent and far-reaching quality of the atrocity, not the ethnic similarity or otherwise of the participants. |
The master of erudition PTID seems to have failed to do his research on the term "genocide". The word "genocide" was first used in 1944, by a Jewish-Polish lawyer, in reference to the systemic mass murder by the Nazis during the Holocaust, in particlar the Jewish population and ethnic Polish population in Eastern Europe. The lawyer in question, Raphael Lemkin, was horrified by his learnings on the systematic extermination of the Armenian population by the government of the Ottoman empire. However, his subsequent coining of the term "genocide" referred to the Nazis' program of the Final Solution and the elimination of vast sections of the Slavic populations in Eastern Europe. To define genocide on the basis of "Levantines killing themselves" is an obscene trivialisation and racialist caricature of the actual meaning of this term.
_________________
Free Julian Assange!!
Ice in the veins |
|
|
|
|
pietillidie
Joined: 07 Jan 2005
|
| Post subject: | |
|
| David wrote: | | pietillidie wrote: | | And there you are still using the term 'genocide', even though it means Levantines killing themselves. |
Sorry if it's not the main point of your post, but I had to jump on this – what's the difference between "Levantines killing themselves" vs "Rwandans killing themselves" vs "Balkan peoples killing themselves" vs "Germanic peoples killing themselves"?
It's quite unlike you to define a term like genocide in such a fundamentalist way, so please correct me if I've misunderstood. Surely any debate over whether or not the assault on Gaza constitutes genocide is a question of the extent and far-reaching quality of the atrocity, not the ethnic similarity or otherwise of the participants. |
I don't define the idea space that way at all; I think the term is distracting, and the discourse and history (of the discourse and the region itself), let alone the actual scientific discussion, too entwined to be useful and beside the point anyhow. I was being facetious, underlining the absurdity of the fundamentalism because I've already answered the question, but you may have missed it. As I said to M2M, who is learning-resistant, there's no need to drag people into rabbit warrens when there are other ways of conveying the urgency of the problem.
Note this idea I'm trying to develop when engaging subject in which I'm not a specialist. I take a risk management approach that averts overstatement because, outside banter or throwaway talk, I see hyperbolic misrepresentation as grossly unethical. But this is a case where the condemnation and urgency are as clear as day, so there's no need to confuse the comms. This is offering an alternative to fundamentalism, so perhaps it's good you missed it because it underscores a consistency you're demanding, and I'm apparently making considerable effort to meet:
| pietillidie wrote: | | Magpietothemax wrote: | The Israeli government has made clear that its aim is genocide. Several members of the Israeli government have referred to the Palestinians as “human animals”.
.By the way, do you think Israel is committing genocide? You have never made your position clear on this. |
For a start, I'm guessing most people with a solid knowledge of the subject would avoid the term 'genocide', whatever the most vulgar creeps in the Israeli government have said. If you pressed me on an official, politically correct statement, I would probably describe it as 'tempting ethnic cleansing'. It could easily become such and is already horrifying whatever one calls it, so it not only needs to be stopped post haste but war crimes investigations should follow.
But there's certainly no need to get entangled such that you need Levantines committing suicide to realise genocide because you somehow get off on using the term for a region with a complex inerrelated history. Can you not identify a rabbit warren when you see one, or are you trying to pull people into one?
We all do that when the mood strikes, but this is not a topic to be sloppy with terminology yet strong on declarations.
I'm happy to call the desire of some Israeli fanatics a dangerous desire for ethnic cleansing, because it seems to fit some of the signals. I'm not happy to think that the majority of Israelis want that or understand the problem such that they think that's happening. More likely a large part of the bellicosity you hear is people lashing out in exhaustion, fear and anger, while the media is geared to make the extremes much of what we hear.
Calling people in that state 'genocidal', when they are steps removed from a frontline they're watching on telly and just pissed off and scared in their basements, doesn't cut it for me. But sure, there will be a minor percentage of scumbags up with ethnic cleansing.
At the same time, I'm not even sure the average Joe Israeli has much of a handle on reining in the bat-eared segment of the country including Netanyahu and cronies. The government itself is no doubt divided underneath whatever front we see, while that creep Nutteryahoo has found ways to manipulate the nation such that they can't even get rid of the bastard.
And don't forget, we live in a world now where people say very strong things because they think they might influence policy somewhat. That might be what you're doing with the term genocide; i.e., if it's horrifying enough we might just coax the US into leaning on them. Words and views are very malleable like that, and should not be read over-literally: "he thinks she thinks I think that you think....", and before you know it no one is really saying what they mean, but rather trying to coax some modest outcome. |
_________________
In the end the rain comes down, washes clean the streets of a blue sky town.
Help Nick's: http://www.magpies.net/nick/bb/fundraising.htm
Last edited by pietillidie on Tue Mar 12, 2024 10:52 pm; edited 1 time in total |
|
|
|
|
Magpietothemax
magpietothemax
Joined: 28 Apr 2013
|
| Post subject: | |
|
| pietillidie wrote: |
1) For a start, I'm guessing most people with a solid knowledge of the subject would avoid the term 'genocide', whatever the most vulgar creeps in the Israeli government have said.
...
2) Calling people in that state 'genocidal', when they are steps removed from a frontline they're watching on telly and just pissed off and scared in their basements, doesn't cut it for me. But sure, there will be a minor percentage of scumbags up with ethnic cleansing.
...
3)Bizarrely, you know the history of everyone else's horrors, but not those of your pet ideology. |
There is alot to say in response to this, but I will address the three most significant points first
1) This claim is just plain wrong. Have you not heard of the UN experts on genocide. Craig Mokhiber resigned from his position as UN Head of Human Rights on October 28 because Israel was "committing text book genocide". Francesca Albanese and multiple UN experts raised the alarm about genocide in Gaza way back in November, and condemned world leaders for being complicit in it.
Experts from South Africa mounted a legal case that Israel was committing genocide which even the pro-US ICC felt compelled to recognise.
2) You accuse me of misrepresentation and being "learning resistant", yet I have posted on numerous occasisns that it is the Israeli government that is carrying out genocide, not the "Israeli people". I have always made clear here that Israel is torn by internal conflicts, and there is significant opposition within Israel itself to the genocidal policies of the Netahanyu government. It is the Israeli government - and all the complicit Western political leaders - who ultimately will stand trial for genocide in Gaza, not the populations of those countries.
3) The crimes carried out in the name of Marxism by the Stalinist bureaucracy in the former Soviet Union are of a similar historical magnitude to those carried out by Hitler. But Stalinism was not socialism. Trotsky explained: Stalinism is the grave digger of the Russian Revolution. The great historical lie of this epoch is that what existed in the Soviet Union was socialism. Trotsky formed the Left Opposition in 1923 to oppose the Stalinist degeneration of the Bolshevik government. In 1938 he formed the Fourth International, to take the place of the Third International which by then had become a counter revolutionary agency of imperialism. It is the Fourth International which today represents the genuine party of socialism, and which is committed to clarifying the real history of the Marxist movement.
I am not expecting you to agree with paragraph 3), tbh i am expecting some abuse from you in relation to it. But all I can do here is point to historical truth regarding the real history of Marxism and the fight for genuuine socialism. Soon, this will become a burning question in the minds of million people as the horrors of the current world continue to rain down upon them.
_________________
Free Julian Assange!!
Ice in the veins |
|
|
|
|
stui magpie
Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.
Joined: 03 May 2005
Location: In flagrante delicto
|
| Post subject: | |
|
| Magpietothemax wrote: | | stui magpie wrote: |
Based on that, what's happening in Gaza (although a long way from acceptable) isn't Genocide and there's no reference to the perps and victims being of similar heritage. |
...and how did you reach this conclusion? Are we to just agree with you, because that is your opinion?
Even the pro-imperialist ICC doesn't agree with you. In their judgement, they declared that there were grounds to believe that Israel was carrying out genocide in Gaza. |
It's my opinion and I don't "expect" that anyone has to agree with it, people have their own minds and can make their own decisions.
The OTP findings was that the case was worthy of investigation, they made no ruling either way and certainly didn't say there were grounds to believe that Israel was carrying out Genocide. It means that they can't or weren't willing to say they weren't doing it, so hence referred it to a proper investigation.
To simplify the process in laymens terms, someone makes a complaint to the Police. They review the complaint and deem that they need to investigate so assign officers to do that. That's where we are at present.
_________________
Every dead body on Mt Everest was once a highly motivated person, so maybe just calm the **** down. |
|
|
|
|
pietillidie
Joined: 07 Jan 2005
|
| Post subject: | |
|
Del.
_________________
In the end the rain comes down, washes clean the streets of a blue sky town.
Help Nick's: http://www.magpies.net/nick/bb/fundraising.htm
Last edited by pietillidie on Tue Mar 12, 2024 10:52 pm; edited 2 times in total |
|
|
|
|
David
I dare you to try
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda
|
| Post subject: | |
|
| pietillidie wrote: | | I was being facetious, underlining the absurdity of the fundamentalism because I've already answered the question, but you may have missed it [...] |
I did read that at the time and thought it was a good post. I would also tend to demur from describing this as a genocide based purely on what's happened so far. If, for instance, a permanent ceasefire were to be called tomorrow, then it would be fair to say that it was an outcome that had been averted. But what this could well be is a genocide in progress, particularly if Israel carries out its threat of a ground invasion of Rafah (a prospect that they thankfully – and Biden probably does deserve some limited credit for this – seem to be backing away from). I note that there was a fair period of time between 1933 and 1941 when it might have been technically inaccurate to describe what was happening in Germany and its occupied territories as genocide. But we all know in hindsight where those pre-genocide policies were leading to.
For me, it's entirely right and good that this has been referred to the International Court of Justice and that this charge of genocide in particular is being considered. We know that there are members of the Israeli government, extremists welcomed into the coalition by Netanyahu and given roles of authority, who do support genocide or ethnic cleansing and have given statements suggesting as much. A motley crew they may be, but these are people who are sitting at the table making decisions. It's also entirely possible that less extreme voices will win out and Israel will back off – although of course nothing they could do now will fix the immense scale of death and suffering that they have already inflicted, and that will continue over the months and years to come thanks to the devastation of living spaces, governance, hospitals and vital infrastructure that has occurred.
I understand that MTTM rubs you the wrong way, and obviously we have our differences too. But I do think you're perhaps allowing that, along with MTTM's particular approach to discourse, to shape a response that's unduly dismissive to the specific claims being made. I'm actually surprised by some parts of your response in blue in the more recent post above and the degree of justification it offers to Israel's actions; I would have thought that you'd see through the government line that this war is merely about "rooting out Hamas" when it (like so many Israeli assaults on Gaza over the previous two decades) looks so much more like a revenge attack and a flexing of muscle. I thought it'd be quite obvious – and, per some Israeli media reports, already very much is to Netanyahu and his circle – that the purported goal of defeating Hamas is and always was entirely unrealistic.
If anything, I don't think the gravity of what's happening on the human population can be overstated. If we think of Gaza as a discrete entity (and it is, effectively, especially since 2006), then turning a territory like that into an uninhabitable smoking ruin is nearly unprecedented in recent history. We have cases of cities or regions being reduced to rubble, perhaps some of them of similar or greater dimensions than the Gaza Strip, but not an entire territory and people like this. If it is a genocide in progress, then I would rather that prospect be raised now while it's happening than calmly and dispassionately discussed in hindsight.
_________________
All watched over by machines of loving grace
Last edited by David on Mon Mar 11, 2024 12:58 pm; edited 2 times in total |
|
|
|
|
pietillidie
Joined: 07 Jan 2005
|
| Post subject: | |
|
^You know I think the end of narcissism is carnage. But you still have to prove it and argue it unimpeachably. That said, I have made it very clear I want them stopped and/or monitored and dragged before the ICC. But as I said pages above, the time for serious intervention (i.e., a serious peace process) has come and gone, which is where the real failure lies, especially after what Hamas just did.
Also, part of my strategy is focusing on Nutteryahoo and the settler cult for good reason: it's politically smarter, clearer, simpler and less entangled. Target the obvious fruitcakes, who in any case always drive much of the violence.
_________________
In the end the rain comes down, washes clean the streets of a blue sky town.
Help Nick's: http://www.magpies.net/nick/bb/fundraising.htm |
|
|
|
|
David
I dare you to try
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda
|
| Post subject: | |
|
Another thing to consider is what overreaction (if indeed we were to grant that the term's use here is exaggerated) might achieve. If the term "genocide" – deployed both in popular/media discourse and also in court proceedings – puts additional pressure on Israel to back off, then surely that's only to the good.
The only situation I can think of where it might be a bad thing is if the term's use were to curtail or frustrate a legitimate military operation. Clearly, that's what's pissing off Israel apologists so much about the ICJ proceedings, because they believe (or are trying to convince themselves and others to believe) that those are the dynamics at play here. But those of us who can see things for how they are already know that Israel has gone way too far, and that the language of massive-scale war crime is perfectly appropriate for what's happened and for what might be to come if there's no intervention. So while I'm all for precision in language, that makes the moral imperative far more around developing and maintaining a language of urgency than policing technical definitions, in my view.
_________________
All watched over by machines of loving grace |
|
|
|
|
David
I dare you to try
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda
|
|
|
|
|
pietillidie
Joined: 07 Jan 2005
|
| Post subject: | |
|
^I've aleady argued indirectly I don't like that approach. It only confounds things and lessens credibility, when the over-kill and violence in Israel's response is clear already, even though many empathise with their reaction to what happened, forgetting about the years of Palestinian oppression.
| pietillidie wrote: | | And don't forget, we live in a world now where people say very strong things because they think they might influence policy somewhat. That might be what you're doing with the term genocide; i.e., if it's horrifying enough we might just coax the US into leaning on them. Words and views are very malleable like that, and should not be read over-literally: "he thinks she thinks I think that you think....", and before you know it no one is really saying what they mean, but rather trying to coax some modest outcome. |
Once everyone starts with the undisciplined hyperbole, nothing anyone says is taken seriously. The far-right purposely uses this approach as standard to muddy the waters and confound meaning, so there's a shabbiness and internet unseriousness about it.
_________________
In the end the rain comes down, washes clean the streets of a blue sky town.
Help Nick's: http://www.magpies.net/nick/bb/fundraising.htm |
|
|
|
|
Magpietothemax
magpietothemax
Joined: 28 Apr 2013
|
| Post subject: | |
|
^It is childishly sad that you keep attributing to me an inferior intelligence just because you profoundly disagree with me.
Your response regarding Stalinism simply shows that you have no knowledge whatsoever of the history of Bolshevism, nor the Left Opposition, nor of the world historical significance of Leon Trotsky’s struggle against Stalinism.
You made the following ignorant remarks: “Sorry, that still says absolutely nothing about managing, leading and sustaining productive, stable, opportunity-rich, competitive and diverse states, peoples and socioeconomies. Nothing. “
How little you know! Trotsky wrote extensively on the economy of the Soviet Union during the 1920’s and 30's and opposed the Stalinist regime’s disastrous economic management of the Soviet Union. Trotsky put forward an alternative program for the economic development of the Soviet Union based on industrialisation and more democracy to allow the working class to have an input into economic decisions.
The Stalinist regime reacted by slandering Trotsky and his supporters, isolating them and ultimately arresting and murdering them, and finally Trotsky himself in Mexico.
The point was that there always existed a coherent political and economic alternative to Stalinism, which was what Trotsky represented: socialist internationalism – the program that the Russian Revolution was originally based upon, until it was sabotaged and ultimately destroyed by Stalinism.
Your comments regarding Hamas, and likening the rule of Hamas to the decades of oppression and murder that the people of Gaza have endured at the hands of the Zionist state, is politically quite horrifying. It gives credence to the Zionists’claims that they are simply “going after Hamas”, and justifies their war crimes on this basis.
I think I rub you up the wrong way because all I do is point out the innate logic of your political positions – this applies to Stui M as well. My aim is not to annoy you but to simply indicate where your positions lead if you don’t rethink them. I get that many people take offence/get angry when their political opinions are challenged, but ultimately you have the choice of adopting an open mind and considering rationally the opposed arguments, or the childish option of simply hurling abuse and attempting to denigrate the opponent.
_________________
Free Julian Assange!!
Ice in the veins |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You cannot download files in this forum
|
|
The Rules
FAQ
Usergroups
Calendar
Search
Log in
Register
