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Magpietothemax 
magpietothemax
Joined: 28 Apr 2013
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| pietillidie wrote: | ^I'm replying to his/her accusation against Stui, which has nothing to do wit
I don't even think Biden can do any more than he's doing given US political reality, hence explained in earlier posts that far from 'controlling' everything, the US is now actually snookered on all kinds of things.
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This comment is astonishing. Biden is doing everything he can to arm, finance and politically cover for Israel's genocide.
The only thing more that he could do, but which perhaps is not allowed in US reality (yet) is to say to Israel, "We give you permission to use a tactical nuclear bomb"
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pietillidie
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Del.
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David 
I dare you to try
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It’s a basic fact though that he could stop sending arms to Israel tomorrow – not sure that would even slow them down at this point, but it would be a start at least – and authorise a vote for ceasefire at the UN. The notion that he’s "doing all he can" when those two things (among many others) are on the table is laughable.
People have short memories, but the fact is that Biden is and always has been a (self-admitted) staunch Zionist. Take a look at his old speeches on this:
https://youtu.be/KnmLj3c2_wk?feature=shared
https://youtu.be/Jov9jxRecFc?feature=shared
No doubt he’s also no friend of Netanyahu and is disturbed by the massacre occurring in Gaza (leaked news reports suggest as much). But he’s arguably the most powerful person in the world and he’s decided to sit on the fence: a bit of aid here, a few bombs there, a few stern words here, a nod of the head there. In a crisis that demands urgent moral leadership, he’s having it both ways. Jon Stewart is hardly a radical leftist, but he nailed it on this: https://youtu.be/K2zbN3AuHG8?feature=shared
The most revealing thing in that video is the stark contrast between rhetoric on Israel/Gaza and Russia/Ukraine. You all know my personal connection to the latter, and I’ve witnessed the suffering inflicted by that war more closely than most here. So I don’t put it lightly when I say that the devastation in Ukraine, rightly castigated by the American political establishment in strong moral tones, is dwarfed in its violence and brutality by the parallel campaign in Gaza. In comparing those two responses, it’s entirely reasonable to see the American response as weasel words, with Biden leading from the front as the weasel-word-deliverer-in-chief.
As for whether Biden is merely working within the constraints of "US political reality", that’s entirely circular because he’s in part responsible for shaping it – that’s what a leader does. And I note with some bitter irony that the so-called constraints of "US political reality", as it’s perceived and actively constructed by political and media elites, are primarily what got Biden to the presidency in the first place. An eternal loop of self-imposed limitation while the world quietly burns: that’s the Democrats, and most certainly conservative Democrats like Biden, in a nutshell.
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pietillidie
Joined: 07 Jan 2005
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^You're not being clear-eyed about this. Look at how many ideologues, how much political control, and how many grifters and parasites it took for the Iraq invasion to be set in motion following an event of enormous magnitude (9/11) in a context of mass Islamophobia targeting a distant peasant land via layers of propaganda.
Do you think creepy Cheney organised it late one night over a beer and a hand of poker?
There was nothing anyone could do to stop it because it was locked in by everything that preceded it, or it was 'over-determined' in poststructuralist parlance. Biden has very limited political control, hemmed in by the weight of bad ideas, assumptions, fragile political power, decades of history on this matter, Nutteryahoo's political control, the menace of Trump and still more general Islamophobia overriding the horror people should have.
If you think he could stop arms sales tomorrow, you're inventing a new reality. He wouldn't have even got elected if he was likely to do that, and would never have lasted this long in mainstream politics. You're creating an imaginary person with imaginary power in a political and power system in a culture that doesn't exist. Swap him out and you only swap in someone the same or worse. If half the population and business thought like us, it might be possible, but they don't. Your 'can' is someone having Putin's level of control making a decision in that kind of country.
It's very silly to see Biden being hemmed in by the whole as 'circular', showing you too have bought the simpleton control model.The ability to push against the tide is a rare and occasional event that requires all the stars to align. There is no 'establishment' that captures the complexities here; that's another imaginary lever that assumes there is some group of people who could sit at a table tomorrow and make it so. Sometimes, it might be true-ish, but you haven't shown it exists in any form right now, if you ever even want it to be so given what else they might dream up. As I say, no one can fix a whole host of things because the political system is so riven and fractured. Biden had one shot to do something after the pandemic and he did it, with the Inflation Reduction Act about the best bit of policy on the planet implemented post-pandemic. But again, that's the stars aligning at a very peculiar moment in economic history, and at a very particular political moment with Trump still lying low and the Dems doing better than expected in the 2022 House of Rep elections. But that moment has sine long gone, and he has no leverage now.
I clearly think the US is horribly wrong on Israel and its lukewarm support for Ukraine, and have warned about Nutteryahoo and the misery of Gaza for years, but I don't think they can do anything about it regardless of what I think. The Great Satan can't tie its own shoelaces up at the moment as a country, so being realistic on what it can do as a divided polity driven by that lunatic Trump is a start.
Or do you think stamping your feet and dreaming up imaginary levers of control and Biden going it alone against Israel will change something? None of this is your doing or my doing, but sadly or otherwise we don't control the world.
We are doing all we can by opposing the pogrom in our circles, and influencing where we can. But inventing imaginary control of imaginary political systems and cultures helps no one at all because it merely clouds the issue, namely that not enough people care enough about Palestinians and fairness in general. It's depressing and hard to know what's even worth trying to do beyond limited contributions, but I'd rather face the world as it is.
One thing we do know, however, is that weirdo leftists isolated from the economy and world will never help Palestinians in a game-changing way because they will never ever be in a position of influence.
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Magpietothemax
magpietothemax
Joined: 28 Apr 2013
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| pietillidie wrote: | ^You're not being clear-eyed about this. Look at how many ideologues, how much political control, and how many grifters and parasites it took for the Iraq invasion to be set in motion following an event of enormous magnitude (9/11) in a context of mass Islamophobia targeting a distant peasant land via layers of propaganda.
Do you think creepy Cheney organised it late one night over a beer and a hand of poker?
There was nothing anyone could do to stop it because it was locked in by everything that preceded it, or it was 'over-determined' in poststructuralist parlance. Biden has very limited political control, hemmed in by the weight of bad ideas, assumptions, fragile political power, decades of history on this matter, Nutteryahoo's political control, the menace of Trump and still more general Islamophobia overriding the horror people should have.
If you think he could stop arms sales tomorrow, you're inventing a new reality. He wouldn't have even got elected if he was likely to do that, and would never have lasted this long in mainstream politics. You're creating an imaginary person with imaginary power in a political and power system in a culture that doesn't exist. Swap him out and you only swap in someone the same or worse. If half the population and business thought like us, it might be possible, but they don't. Your 'can' is someone having Putin's level of control making a decision in that kind of country.
It's very silly to see Biden being hemmed in by the whole as 'circular', showing you too have bought the simpleton control model.The ability to push against the tide is a rare and occasional event that requires all the stars to align. There is no 'establishment' that captures the complexities here; that's another imaginary lever that assumes there is some group of people who could sit at a table tomorrow and make it so. Sometimes, it might be true-ish, but you haven't shown it exists in any form right now, if you ever even want it to be so given what else they might dream up. As I say, no one can fix a whole host of things because the political system is so riven and fractured. Biden had one shot to do something after the pandemic and he did it, with the Inflation Reduction Act about the best bit of policy on the planet implemented post-pandemic. But again, that's the stars aligning at a very peculiar moment in economic history, and at a very particular political moment with Trump still lying low and the Dems doing better than expected in the 2022 House of Rep elections. But that moment has sine long gone, and he has no leverage now.
I clearly think the US is horribly wrong on Israel and its lukewarm support for Ukraine, and have warned about Nutteryahoo and the misery of Gaza for years, but I don't think they can do anything about it regardless of what I think. The Great Satan can't tie its own shoelaces up at the moment as a country, so being realistic on what it can do as a divided polity driven by that lunatic Trump is a start.
Or do you think stamping your feet and dreaming up imaginary levers of control and Biden going it alone against Israel will change something? None of this is your doing or my doing, but sadly or otherwise we don't control the world.
We are doing all we can by opposing the pogrom in our circles, and influencing where we can. But inventing imaginary control of imaginary political systems and cultures helps no one at all because it merely clouds the issue, namely that not enough people care enough about Palestinians and fairness in general. It's depressing and hard to know what's even worth trying to do beyond limited contributions, but I'd rather face the world as it is.
One thing we do know, however, is that weirdo leftists isolated from the economy and world will never help Palestinians in a game-changing way because they will never ever be in a position of influence. |
David is being very clear eyed about it. It is you who is obfuscating the nature of the reality that we confront, and attempting to shield the Biden administration and the entire US ruling elite from their total complicity in the genocide in Gaza.
You claim that you are doing all you can in your circles to oppose this barbarism. But it is impossible to genuinely oppose it if you do not call out the US for its role of total complicity and facilitation in this genocide.
I think you have mentioned in your contributions that you live in the UK. It is likewise extraoridinary that you have made no mention of Rishi Sunak's complicity in the genocide. He is threatening to ban pro-Palestine protests and arrest protesters for "anti-Semitism". He is hardly some "poor politician, hemmed in by bad ideas and assumptions, and fragile political power". He is an imperialist politician who is in charge of the British state apparatus, and is openly threatening to unleash police violence against literally millions of people in Britain who are opposed to genocide.
Likewise, Biden is not "hemmed in by bad ideas and assumptions", paralysed by "fragile political power". He is an open supporter of genocide. It is the US that vetoes systematically all UN resolutions calling for a peacefire. The US continues to supply weaponry and money to the Israeli government while it perpetrates mass murder. Morevoer, most elements in the Republican party also support the genocide in Gaza. Support for Israel is a bipartisan policy of the US ruling elite, in the same way that the criminal war based on lies against Iraq was a bipartisan policy (Biden also voted for war agaisnt Iraq).
To put forward the notion that Biden is "doing everything he can within the limits of the US political reality" to stop the genocide would be laughable if it were not so nauseating.
Finally, David is absolutely correct in pointing out that Biden himself plays a major role in shaping the US political conditions it. Ever since he was elected, Biden has gone out of his way to avoid openly going after Trump for the attempted coup. He has repeated endlessly that he wants a "strong Republican party". His policiies on the covid pandemic are indistinguishable from those of Trump. Far more people in the US have died or become incapacitated from covid under Biden than Trump. Just recently, Biden called on Trump to "join me" in adopting a new cascade of policies aimed at the persecution of desperate immigrants and asylum seekers on the US southern border. How is this not "shaping the US political reality" ???
Anyone who claims to oppose the barbarism that the Israeli government is unleashing in Gaza without also mentioning the crucial role played by all the imperialist governments, and most importantly by the US, is not capable of providing any meaningful opposition because they are not acknowledging and taking into account fundamental aspects of objective reality - in other words, as David phrased it, "fence sitting".
And finally, you are completely wrong in suggesting that "not enough people care about the Palestinians". Are you not aware of the global protests of the last 3 months, where millions have marched in support of the Palestinians, and in opposition to genocide? In fact, the majority of the population opposes the pro-Zionist policies of all the NATO governments, and of Australia, but these governments are ignoring the protests, and riding totally roughshod over the will of the majority of the population.
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pietillidie
Joined: 07 Jan 2005
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Del.
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Last edited by pietillidie on Tue Mar 12, 2024 10:54 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Magpietothemax
magpietothemax
Joined: 28 Apr 2013
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^
Rather than attempting to belittle me as a "brainwashed robot/ignoramus"', why don't you actually address the points that I have made?
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pietillidie
Joined: 07 Jan 2005
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Del.
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Last edited by pietillidie on Tue Mar 12, 2024 10:54 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Magpietothemax
magpietothemax
Joined: 28 Apr 2013
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| pietillidie wrote: | ^You've built this bizarre edifice from fantastical 20,000 throwaway myths about how the world works, whether business, the economy, the political system or culture, and have zero understanding of the psycho-social realm, through which which every single thing is filtered, including your own thoughts.
E.g., Biden is not free to trot about doing what he likes, because he is not Putin in Putin's Russia, who even then is no doubt greatly constrained in ways we can't discern given Russia's culture distance from us. But use your basic powers of logic: Biden is part of a fragile but massive cross-branch, multi-state arrangement facing a destabilising chaos merchant such that his party can barely implement the most basic operations of government, such as passing budgetary measures. Moreover, as explained, even that's miles too simple as he wouldn't even be in a position to influence anything if he didn't play the received game as it is. A game he never invented, but was born into. You can't have your cake and eat it too: you can't be unelectable and outside government and power, and yet have complete control of government and be all-powerful at once. In other words, you've got it wrong on both accounts.
It is in fact you who hasn't provided a detailed explanation of how anything works, or hasn't even got the slightest sense of the real-world complexity, particularly where complex organisations are concerned. And you're miles away from even grasping the size of the information gap because you don't even have critical primitive models of organisations, societies, individuals, nations, regions, blocs and the global economy in your head from which to analogise or calculate.
You're like a wide-eyed child who thinks you're Luke Sywalker in the Star Wars universe. Could you even run a church fete successfully? Manage a complex project and team? Deliver training programmes to high-end professionals on any subject in any area? Save a small struggling firm while meeting payroll for fifty people whose families depend on you? Implement a single government policy in any portfolio, or even be invited into discussion in advance of such a policy?
Honestly, the understanding gap is so great, I wouldn't know where to start to explain it to you. You haven't even looked at critiques of Marxian thought to bump into the beginning of these questions.
I was mocking you on Sunak because you can't even tell I track the idiot and his party every single day. Would David or Stui think for two seconds I wouldn't have a view on Sunak or Tory policy? No, because they can read and read between the lines that I think he's so pathetic and inconsequential there's no point even engaging the topic. Clearly, you're not even utilising the straightforward information before you on this forum, because you're not listening, but rather reacting.
To be fair, most people don't think things through carefully, and most people are not duly cautious with topics beyond their learning. But they generally know that they're only using working heuristics to poke at a foreign and mystifying entity, and are simply making conversation. But the claims you make, built on an edifice of imaginary building blocks, none of which you've defined or can even define, is little more than religion. Have some doubt and self-awareness, for goodness' sake. If you were a doctor, you'd be treating bronchitis with cigarette smoke, all the while being absolutely certain the malady was caused by 'the elites'.
People don't know what they don't know, as the saying goes. |
To your credit, you have actually made some relevant points relating to my arguments that I can respond to instead of merely abusing me (although you still did that).
You seem to be arguing that Biden is powerless to stop the war in Gaza. This is where your view of reality is totallly flawed. Biden is actively facilitating and encouraging the war, he has absolutely no intention of stopping Israel. Sections of the US ruling elite, represented by the Democrats, believe that the only way for the US to preserve the dominant role of the dollar in the US economy and global faith in its economic system is by using its military power to seize strategic resources against and reassert colonial rule. It is an insane perspective that can only lead to nuclear war, but Biden represents this faction of the ruling elite. The Democrats are literally embracing war as part of their political program. Literally they would prefer nuclear annihilation to a world in which the US is not occupying a dominant role in the capitalist economy.
Thenn there is the section represented by Trump, who agree fundamentally with the other faction, but believe that first domestic opposition needs to be dealt with by immediately abolishing democracy and establishing an authoritarian form of rule.
Both factions ultimately agree that the US must press ahead with its goal of preserving economic hegemony at any cost. There are tactical differences. So Biden cant get some budget measures through because the Republicans demand as a quid pro quo that he needs to institute more draconian measures against immigrants. Biden's response is always to appease the Republicans and to try to create a compromise. Yes a compromise with fascists. Biden has no qualms about making compromises with fascists. So it is not that Biden is impotent to act regarding Gaza. Israel is carrying out the policy of the Democrats. Naturally Biden makes occasionally plaintive remonstrations about all the bloodshed and the innocent women and children being massacred, in order to cover his tracks. He even organised one US food drop into Gaza to try to detract from the fact that the US defunded one of the main aid providers in Gaza and raises no objections to Israel's continued blockade of aid entering Gaza.
Finally, what is your opinion on the fact that it is not only Sunak who believes that anti-Zionist demonstrations in Britain need to be repressed, but it is also that of ""Sir" Keir Starmer. Let me make a prediction about your views. You believe that Sunak is a vile scum. But you also believe that the victory of Keir Starmer in an election against Sunak would bring about a better outcome for the British people. Am I right?
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pietillidie
Joined: 07 Jan 2005
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^Israel is carrying out policy within the boundaries that American and global discourse and thought afford. They're not my boundaries, but someone with my boundaries would never ever be elected.
To reduce that to "tactical differences" is a word-for-word Chomskyan deflection. Aside from quoting Chomsky's views without reference, you're not even engaging his views. Chomsky - god love 'im - has never ever explained the boundary conditions of thought. Saying there are tactical differences within a narrow band is to say 'that's what societies do'. Okay, now tell us how to move on from that. You can't because you've never done it. Chomsky hasn't been elected. You haven't been elected. Anyone with thought even hinting in your direction hasn't been elected, with Bernie Sanders having been one recent voice in one inclined tiny state. But it's far, far easier to be a malcontent than an integral reformer. Far different.
Chomsky will never ever tell you how to overcome outsider status, because he's never ever overcome it himself. No matter how intelligent he might be, he's never managed a firm. Never led an organisation. Never implemented a policy. Never run for office. He's a satisfied and successful outsider. I love the guy for who he is within his limitations, and he's influenced my thinking on linguistics, cognition, AI and the mind as much as anyone in the field. But he wil never in a gazillion years be more than that. He himself when pressed on these questions reduces the matter to 'hope'. He doesn't have the answers beyond clever argument that can simply be ignored.
Well, 'hope' is essentially religion. His notion that people would be right-minded if allowed to live unimpeded is completely untested and untestable at societal scale let alone individual scale, which, again, makes it religion.
And even Chomsky, as elections near, inevitably errs towards the 'material differences' between Democrats and Republicans (e.g., Obamacare versus no insurance at all). That's exactly what I'm doing when I mention utility.
My view is very different, namely, that one is born into something they never created and never requested, and it's either narcissism or dissociation to pretend otherwise. You are not better, you are one and the same. From there, it takes huge luck to nudge something in your direction, even if by fortune it happens to be a superior direction, because systems generate forces well beyond individuals.
You know how the likes of Naomi Klein talk about 'crisis capitalism'? What she means is it takes a sudden rupture in the fabric of things to create opportunity change even when you're powerful. Think about that for a moment: that means you need even more fortune to pursue change if you're not powerful, or even a world-famous academic.
You didn't create the world and you can't create the world. It's beyond each of us, which is merely stating a truism, to employ another Chomskyism. You can add your voice and try to nudge the world when conditions are in your favour. And remember, you're not psychopathic, so unlike the sickest ba$tards and free riders on the planet like Trump, you also have to deal with conscience, care for others, and emotional complexity.
The task is to position yourself ready for that opportunity to make a tiny dent on the world, and that means being part of the mainstream you inherited of no choice of your own ready to seize the opportunity for change when it comes, if by chance it comes. 'Evil' is nothing more than opposition to betterment that is on the cards, which is something I wish you'd spend more time considering. It takes vicious, conscious, proactive derangement to cockblock systemic opportunity for betterment. But it also takes patience and awareness to be ready when the opportunity for betterment at serious scale arises. The rest of life is beyond our capacity, regardless of one's delusional, narcissistic, omniscient and omnipotent fantasies otherwise.
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David
I dare you to try
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda
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| pietillidie wrote: | | It takes vicious, conscious, proactive derangement to cockblock systemic opportunity for betterment. But it also takes patience and awareness to be ready when the opportunity for betterment at serious scale arises. |
To get at the heart of what's being discussed here, I don't think you're fully cognisant of how some of the people you see as (potential or actual) incremental reformers are actually doing the first of those two, and have no intention of doing the second. And that's a problem, because a belief in pragmatic lesser-evilism necessitates some faith that those opportunities are going to be taken when presented. That faith can be influenced by naivety, which is obviously not the case here, or ideologically motivated blindness.
I do think here that you're presenting a certain quite restrictive ideological understanding of the world as unshakeable reality. (For instance, you keep asking MTTM if they've ever run a business, etc., as if answering no disqualifies one from having any understanding how the world works – to me that's just a different skew on younger people being told they haven't lived, or the childless that they don't belong in politics, etc.; needless to say, there are plenty of successful businessmen who are incredibly thick and know nothing about anything, and plenty of grassroots activists who are very perceptive and read widely.) I can't believe you're dinging Chomsky for not being elected when we take into account the many absolute cretins who have, as if having had that job qualifies them for anything or that the insular world they inhabit fosters wisdom that we can learn from.
To be more specific, much of where you and I politically part ways would be in how we tend to view the supposedly practical centrists like Biden, Starmer, Albanese, Macron et al: I very much view these people and the party powerbrokers that install them as immensely cynical, and very willing to sell the promise of incremental reform while actually delivering little if any of it. Of course the fact that they're primarily opposed now by equally powerful right-wing nutjobs means that it's comparatively easy to coast on warning of the dangers of letting the other side get behind the wheel, rather than take the sorts of political risks that are so badly needed in the various moribund societies of the developed world (risks that, despite what all the sensible people tell us, are actually entirely possible to enact with sufficient political will).
I remain of the opinion that this notion of the constraints of change is an entirely self-fulfilling prophecy. There's a lot of received wisdom on this that's not actually based on all that much other than ideology and the fact that people in circles of media and political influence keep repeating it, and I think the truest term for it is "conservative". Not that there's anything wrong with taking a conservative approach to the problems of the world when required, but many current problems require so much more urgency, and Gaza is one of them.
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Magpietothemax
magpietothemax
Joined: 28 Apr 2013
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stui magpie 
Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.
Joined: 03 May 2005
Location: In flagrante delicto
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Yeah, that's gonna fly like a cast iron hang glider. Good luck to them.
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Magpietothemax
magpietothemax
Joined: 28 Apr 2013
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| stui magpie wrote: | | Yeah, that's gonna fly like a cast iron hang glider. Good luck to them. |
Of course, it will get nowhere. The ICC is a useless instrument of imperialism. Nevertheless, the brief is damning proof that the Albanese government is guilty of being accessory to genocide. While the ICC will not apply any consequences, who knows what court in the future might hold Albanese and his band of stooges accountable. The point is not what it achieves right now. The point is that it establishes a legally watertight case for the criminal indictment of the Australian Labor government which will always be on the record. These political criminals will never be able to discount the possiblity of one day answering for their crimes.
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stui magpie
Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.
Joined: 03 May 2005
Location: In flagrante delicto
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Bullshit. It's a brief. The only thing it proves is that they wrote and submitted a brief. It's a legally watertight case for exactly 9/10th of fvck all unless it is accepted as actionable. Until then, it has no more standing than a petition to stop dogs shitting on my naturestrip.
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