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5 from the wing on debut 



Joined: 27 May 2016


PostPosted: Wed Sep 23, 2020 1:00 pm
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P4S, I understand that because you take a different view of the game than most by counting hitouts like Rainman, you believe the comparison between English and Grundy is hilarious. I assume that you haven't seen many Dogs games, but if you want stats, here they are.

In 17 games this year English has 72 marks (4.2 per game), 23 of which are contested. He has 8 goals.

In 17 games Grundy has 53 marks (3.1 per game), 18 of which are contested, and 2 goals.

English is developing, and Grundy is probably injured, so maybe comparing Grundy's inferior output as compared to English this year isn't fair.

Last year, which bought him the big deal, Grundy played 24 games and took 105 marks (4.3 per game) and kicked 7 goals. It's close, but English is probably better this year than Grundy was last year.
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Pies4shaw Leo

pies4shaw


Joined: 08 Oct 2007


PostPosted: Wed Sep 23, 2020 1:02 pm
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masoncox wrote:
Some Stats
that indicate we have some concerns about our rucks

● Ranked 12th in Contested Marks Per Game

● Ranked 13th in Centre Clearances Per Game

● Ranked 15th in least Opponent Stoppage Clearances Per Game

● Ranked 12th in Team to Opponent Stoppage Clearances Per Game Diff.

As stated before Grundy is below par when it comes to contested marks.
Averages 0.9 contested marks per game.
You need the ruckman to take contested marks around the ground.
We got beaten on Monday night solely because we got done at the centre bounce.
Take it out of the centre into Inside 50 and you have an even contest because of the 6-6-6 rule
Centre clearences are crucial!!!
Either we have a problem with the ruck or a problem with the mids or a combination of both.
Something is critically wrong there.
Everybody knows that the ruck work of hit outs by Grundy isn't working.
Even though he dominates with the hitouts.

If Grundy hits the ball consistently to our mids and they clear it forward then we would not be sitting 8th on the ladder but in the top 4.
Hit outs to his feet or hit outs to the opposition is what has been happening all season.
As for English..... good chance he will win a Brownlow in 5 years time as long as he keeps fit.
I don't think Grundy has a hope in hell of winning one at the current time.

Grundy almost won the last one. Partly because of the 6 votes he got pantsing English, twice. I suppose you had a look at their stats from the last time they played?

I can't believe that you would seriously propose recruiting English in place of anyone to ruck. His ruck work is woeful. The suggestion of replacing Grundy with him beggars belief.
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Pies4shaw Leo

pies4shaw


Joined: 08 Oct 2007


PostPosted: Wed Sep 23, 2020 1:15 pm
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5 from the wing on debut wrote:
P4S, I understand that because you take a different view of the game than most by counting hitouts like Rainman, you believe the comparison between English and Grundy is hilarious. I assume that you haven't seen many Dogs games, but if you want stats, here they are.

In 17 games this year English has 72 marks (4.2 per game), 23 of which are contested. He has 8 goals.

In 17 games Grundy has 53 marks (3.1 per game), 18 of which are contested, and 2 goals.

English is developing, and Grundy is probably injured, so maybe comparing Grundy's inferior output as compared to English this year isn't fair.

Last year, which bought him the big deal, Grundy played 24 games and took 105 marks (4.3 per game) and kicked 7 goals. It's close, but English is probably better this year than Grundy was last year.

In a way, I'd quite like to see the swap. If I weren't a Collingwood supporter, it might be amusing to watch Bont and his crew playing to a winning ruck. Who knows - since Treloar and Adams seem to be incapable of doing anything with the hitouts they do receive, giving them English to rove to might make us "better," also? Not perhaps by as much as by keeping the best ruckman Collingwood has ever had and getting some competent midfielders to support Pendlebury (or, better still, replace him before he turns 90) - but better.
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masoncox 

masoncox


Joined: 31 Aug 2015


PostPosted: Wed Sep 23, 2020 1:17 pm
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Yep
Well aware of the Stat re Grundy vs English.

Englsh has just turned 23 ..... he should not have carried the workload against older and big bodied rucks at his young age.
But the dogs know a potential match winner when they see one and that is why they are blooding him now.
If Grundy keeps jumping only millimetres off the ground in every ruck contest against English in a year or 2 then he won't be getting the free chocolates that he has in the past.
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K 



Joined: 09 Sep 2011


PostPosted: Wed Sep 23, 2020 2:00 pm
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Pies4shaw wrote:
masoncox wrote:
...
As for English..... good chance he will win a Brownlow in 5 years time as long as he keeps fit.
I don't think Grundy has a hope in hell of winning one at the current time.

Grundy almost won the last one. Partly because of the 6 votes he got pantsing English, twice. I suppose you had a look at their stats from the last time they played?

I can't believe that you would seriously propose recruiting English in place of anyone to ruck. His ruck work is woeful. The suggestion of replacing Grundy with him beggars belief.

Do you honestly reckon Grundy's ruckwork is good?
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K 



Joined: 09 Sep 2011


PostPosted: Wed Sep 23, 2020 2:03 pm
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5 from the wing on debut wrote:

Hitout stats rank right up there with the stats on which caravan sold the most donuts outside the ground on game day.

Which column did Grundy's hitout to Dixon go to, as it was the best hitout to advantage in the game? Dixon had a free run onto that ball because of the set up around the ball, and the shock to everyone that Grundy, unopposed, hit it in the most unlikely and dangerous direction.

I find it incredible that for season after season he can win more hitouts than his opponents, but we lose the clearances, and the blame be given to everyone but him. That reminds me of the comedian Jasper Carrot talking about his mother in law's driving ability - "I have never had an accident but every day they happen all around me".

In the goal assist column, I think. In soccer, they do list OGs.
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Pies4shaw Leo

pies4shaw


Joined: 08 Oct 2007


PostPosted: Wed Sep 23, 2020 2:22 pm
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masoncox wrote:
Yep
Well aware of the Stat re Grundy vs English.

Englsh has just turned 23 ..... he should not have carried the workload against older and big bodied rucks at his young age.
But the dogs know a potential match winner when they see one and that is why they are blooding him now.
If Grundy keeps jumping only millimetres off the ground in every ruck contest against English in a year or 2 then he won't be getting the free chocolates that he has in the past.

In three games against Grundy, English has managed a total of 34 hitouts. One on one, in those 3 games, Grundy won 143 hitouts.

In those 3 games against us, he has managed a total of just 3 contested marks. He's taken a lot of contested marks against the rubbish (eg, 7 against Essendon). Against the good teams, he's taken 4 in 3 games against West Coast, 3 in 2 games against Port Adelaide, 1 in 2 games against Richmond, 1 in 2 games against Geelong and 2 in 2 games against Brisbane.

The mention of English's goals is entirely specious. Neither Grundy nor English gets enough. What is notable about English's 8 goals, though, is that not one of them has been against a team that made the finals.

It's all well and good putting up the numbers against the competition's sludge - it's what you do against the best that matters.

Here's the player comparison for Grundy and English at the same age (English's 2020 and Grundy's 2017). https://www.footywire.com/afl/footy/ft_player_compare?playerStatus1=A&tid1=5&playerStatus2=A&tid2=8&type=A&pid1=3812&pid2=6345&fid1=O&fid2=O

No-one in their right mind would pick English ahead of Grundy looking at those.

Also, for all the noise about English being thrown into the ruck when he was young, Grundy debuted 6 months younger than English, was playing first ruck before he turned 20, before he was 22 had had Witts banished to the VFL and by the time he was English's present age had played nearly a full season of games more than English. And, of course, why, although he's only three years older than English, Thor will play his 150th game in the first week of October, while English plays his 47th.

It's time to be sensible, people. Compare Grundy with an actual footballer, if you like, but let's not pretend that an underperformed player at Footscray with potential who gets games because they have no-one else is a better option than Grundy.
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K 



Joined: 09 Sep 2011


PostPosted: Wed Sep 23, 2020 3:20 pm
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Warning: this should have an MA15+ rating on it.

https://www.portadelaidefc.com.au/video/817724/play-of-the-day-round-18-ptv?videoId=817724&modal=true&type=video&publishFrom=1600743720001
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5 from the wing on debut 



Joined: 27 May 2016


PostPosted: Wed Sep 23, 2020 3:28 pm
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Pies4shaw wrote:
5 from the wing on debut wrote:
P4S, I understand that because you take a different view of the game than most by counting hitouts like Rainman, you believe the comparison between English and Grundy is hilarious. I assume that you haven't seen many Dogs games, but if you want stats, here they are.

In 17 games this year English has 72 marks (4.2 per game), 23 of which are contested. He has 8 goals.

In 17 games Grundy has 53 marks (3.1 per game), 18 of which are contested, and 2 goals.

English is developing, and Grundy is probably injured, so maybe comparing Grundy's inferior output as compared to English this year isn't fair.

Last year, which bought him the big deal, Grundy played 24 games and took 105 marks (4.3 per game) and kicked 7 goals. It's close, but English is probably better this year than Grundy was last year.

In a way, I'd quite like to see the swap. If I weren't a Collingwood supporter, it might be amusing to watch Bont and his crew playing to a winning ruck. Who knows - since Treloar and Adams seem to be incapable of doing anything with the hitouts they do receive, giving them English to rove to might make us "better," also? Not perhaps by as much as by keeping the best ruckman Collingwood has ever had and getting some competent midfielders to support Pendlebury (or, better still, replace him before he turns 90) - but better.


I never raised the prospect of a swap but we all know that a swap, or even a trade anywhere else, is never going to occur. Not unless we keep paying a large part of his contract. There's no other club so foolish as to pay that much for a ruckman.

Maybe Treloar and Adams should tell Grundy before every ball up that they are opposing him in that contest then he will hit it perfectly in front of them.
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stui magpie Gemini

Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.


Joined: 03 May 2005
Location: In flagrante delicto

PostPosted: Wed Sep 23, 2020 4:42 pm
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Some of the statements and comparisons in this thread are ridiculous.

I like Grundy, a lot, but some of his tap work is just plain poor.

That tap that Dixon sharked to kick a goal is a classic example. He did a soft tap straight in front of him, aimed at Pendlebury who was standing still facing him with an opponent so close behind he risked being charged with sexual assault.

tapping to a stationary target who is covered, right in front of goal is a NO on every level. He does those kind of taps too often and they are predictable to opposition. He needs to be looking more for moving targets wider from the congestion.

I also hate seeing him using 2 handed soft taps like a volleyball player just tapping it over the net.

Get a decent ruck coach for him and the sky is the limit.

_________________
Every dead body on Mt Everest was once a highly motivated person, so maybe just calm the **** down.
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5 from the wing on debut 



Joined: 27 May 2016


PostPosted: Wed Sep 23, 2020 4:57 pm
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stui magpie wrote:
Some of the statements and comparisons in this thread are ridiculous.

I like Grundy, a lot, but some of his tap work is just plain poor.

That tap that Dixon sharked to kick a goal is a classic example. He did a soft tap straight in front of him, aimed at Pendlebury who was standing still facing him with an opponent so close behind he risked being charged with sexual assault.

tapping to a stationary target who is covered, right in front of goal is a NO on every level. He does those kind of taps too often and they are predictable to opposition. He needs to be looking more for moving targets wider from the congestion.

I also hate seeing him using 2 handed soft taps like a volleyball player just tapping it over the net.

Get a decent ruck coach for him and the sky is the limit.


We were having a perfectly good argument about not much that amounted to nothing until you came along being all sensible and ruined it !
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stui magpie Gemini

Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.


Joined: 03 May 2005
Location: In flagrante delicto

PostPosted: Wed Sep 23, 2020 5:01 pm
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I'm talented that way. Embarassed

Wink

_________________
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PyreneesPie Pisces

PyreneesPie


Joined: 22 Aug 2014


PostPosted: Wed Sep 23, 2020 5:40 pm
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5 from the wing on debut wrote:
stui magpie wrote:
Some of the statements and comparisons in this thread are ridiculous.

I like Grundy, a lot, but some of his tap work is just plain poor.

That tap that Dixon sharked to kick a goal is a classic example. He did a soft tap straight in front of him, aimed at Pendlebury who was standing still facing him with an opponent so close behind he risked being charged with sexual assault.

tapping to a stationary target who is covered, right in front of goal is a NO on every level. He does those kind of taps too often and they are predictable to opposition. He needs to be looking more for moving targets wider from the congestion.

I also hate seeing him using 2 handed soft taps like a volleyball player just tapping it over the net.

Get a decent ruck coach for him and the sky is the limit.


We were having a perfectly good argument about not much that amounted to nothing until you came along being all sensible and ruined it !


Laughing Laughing Well said!! Also, well summed up Stui.

I'm a bit flummoxed that Pies4Shaw should automatically think anyone who dares be critical of Grundy's tap work is a Grundy hater Wink
Most of us are just acknowledging what is glaringly obvious - his tap work needs improvement.
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Pies4shaw Leo

pies4shaw


Joined: 08 Oct 2007


PostPosted: Wed Sep 23, 2020 6:42 pm
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5 from the wing on debut wrote:
I never raised the prospect of a swap ....

No, you didn't. I was referring to this:

masoncox wrote:
I would swap Grundy and Treloar for English in a heartbeat.
English is the type of ruckman you would die for.
In the past English has been thrashed by Grundy in the past
But the tide is turning.
.
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Pies4shaw Leo

pies4shaw


Joined: 08 Oct 2007


PostPosted: Wed Sep 23, 2020 8:35 pm
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stui magpie wrote:
Some of the statements and comparisons in this thread are ridiculous.

I like Grundy, a lot, but some of his tap work is just plain poor.

That tap that Dixon sharked to kick a goal is a classic example. He did a soft tap straight in front of him, aimed at Pendlebury who was standing still facing him with an opponent so close behind he risked being charged with sexual assault.

tapping to a stationary target who is covered, right in front of goal is a NO on every level. He does those kind of taps too often and they are predictable to opposition. He needs to be looking more for moving targets wider from the congestion.

I also hate seeing him using 2 handed soft taps like a volleyball player just tapping it over the net.

Get a decent ruck coach for him and the sky is the limit.

Some of it is disastrous to watch. Much of it is exacerbated by poor midfield play. I have said before that he is obviously rucking to instructions and doing exactly what is asked of him. He didn't start out rucking this way, by any means - I watched every VFL game he played before he came into the senior side and he didn't then do what is now asked of him.

What worries me more than his occasional howler, though, are the appalling stuff ups by our midfielders, most notably Adams and Treloar, when the ball is hit to their advantage. There was one centre contest against Port, straight after we'd scored (Pendlebury to de Goey) and had a last chance to get inton the game - Grundy put the ball down Treloar's throat. A competent mid (say Bont, Cotchin, Dangerfield, Pendlebury) would have streamed to CHF and hit our FF lace-up. Treloar sploshed the thing, lost the run of it and it went straight into the Port forward line.

I wrote this in the Game On thread at 9.12 pm:

Pies4shaw wrote:
.... I can’t believe how so many of you fail to notice that we’re winning all the hitouts and the hitouts to advantage (at the ratio of 2 to 1) but we keep losing the clearances because the opposition players second to the ball take it off Treloar and Adams. Week after week for 4 years. It’s annoying.


and this at 9.17 pm (straight after the de Goey goal and the Treloar spud-effort):
Pies4shaw wrote:
There. Treloar just did it again. Grundy palmed it down his throat and he coughed it straight up for yet another Port centre clearance.


The ball then spent the next few minutes bouncing between Port's forward line and the wing. All momentum was lost, along with any chance of being in the game.
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