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Civil liberties, disability and mental health

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Tannin Capricorn

Can't remember


Joined: 06 Aug 2006
Location: Huon Valley Tasmania

PostPosted: Tue Sep 15, 2020 10:31 pm
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David wrote:
... but that’s not what I want to argue here – what I’m curious about is how you feel offenders with an incapacitation that they aren’t responsible for (e.g. mental illness) should be handled by the justice and healthcare systems


I don't have clear answers for that David. It is hard. Very hard. I do believe that we train people to be mentally ill by divorcing actions and consequences. This is something that starts in infancy (given bad parenting, which is very common, alas) and is reinforced by the education system, and then by the (in)justice system.

If you sat down and designed a clean-sheet-of-paper system with the specific aim of creating crime and mental illness in as many people as possible, you'd very likely end up with something very like the education and justice systems already have.

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eddiesmith Taurus

Lets get ready to Rumble


Joined: 23 Nov 2004
Location: Lexus Centre

PostPosted: Tue Sep 15, 2020 10:38 pm
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It was interesting to hear the Police bloke today actually spoke some sense, instead of the usual crap from Deputy Commissioner Wiggum that we had been getting.

But too often Police have been scared to use their cars to ram other vehicles, but now they feel inclined to run people over.

But the bloke who stomped on his head won't be a police officer for very long you wouldn't think and would be lucky to stay a free man.
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think positive Libra

Side By Side


Joined: 30 Jun 2005
Location: somewhere

PostPosted: Wed Sep 16, 2020 11:16 am
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Tannin wrote:
David wrote:
Of course I’m inclined to disagree with the suggestion of mandatory imprisonment for drug-related offences.


Sorry, that's not what I meant to suggest at all. I'm talking prison for bad crimes (basically any crime involving significant violence, and selected other crimes of similar gravity), and no discount because you were out of your brain on drugs. Like this ...

"Your Worship, I'm sorry. I wasn't bad, it wasn't my fault, it was the ice I was on that made me do it."

"Prisoner, I don't give a damn if you were hitting up drain cleaner at the time. Or 100% clean. You did what you did and for that the penalty is such-and-such. Drugs or no drugs. Your actions, your responsibility."

Simply using drugs shouldn't be a crime at all. Do what you damn well like in the privacy of your own home, and with due care for the rights of others, notably children. It's your body, if you want to wreck it, that's your right. (Note that this does not allow you to endanger others by, e.g., driving while drunk.)

It's all about requiring people to take responsibility for their own actions. And equally, about helping people, working WITH people to avoid crime in the first place. Carrot and stick. Both are needed.



yes yes yes, braVO,

there is a big difference between self inflicted mental illness, ie alcoholism should be no excuse for mounting a footpath with a 2 tone battering ram and mowing down a bunch of innocents, or even criminals for that matter, and someone who was sadly born with, or developed a mental deficit.

and even so, bipolar is NO EXCUSE for raping, killing, or child abuse.

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David Libra

I dare you to try


Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda

PostPosted: Wed Sep 16, 2020 12:46 pm
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Tannin wrote:
David wrote:
... but that’s not what I want to argue here – what I’m curious about is how you feel offenders with an incapacitation that they aren’t responsible for (e.g. mental illness) should be handled by the justice and healthcare systems


I don't have clear answers for that David. It is hard. Very hard. I do believe that we train people to be mentally ill by divorcing actions and consequences. This is something that starts in infancy (given bad parenting, which is very common, alas) and is reinforced by the education system, and then by the (in)justice system.

If you sat down and designed a clean-sheet-of-paper system with the specific aim of creating crime and mental illness in as many people as possible, you'd very likely end up with something very like the education and justice systems already have.


While I have no idea about mental illness rates – it seems pretty clear that diagnosis is way up in recent years, but, from my understanding, it's near impossible to tract trajectory given past stigmatisation and lack of recognition of mental illnesses – isn't it generally true that crime is in fact decreasing? So it seems like whatever we have now must be working, somehow?

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K 



Joined: 09 Sep 2011


PostPosted: Wed Sep 16, 2020 2:22 pm
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Mental illness and violence

https://www.health.harvard.edu/newsletter_article/mental-illness-and-violence

"Public opinion surveys suggest that many people think mental illness and violence go hand in hand. A 2006 national survey found, for example, that 60% of Americans thought that people with schizophrenia were likely to act violently toward someone else, while 32% thought that people with major depression were likely to do so.

In fact, research suggests that this public perception does not reflect reality.
Most individuals with psychiatric disorders are not violent. Although a subset of people with psychiatric disorders commit assaults and violent crimes, findings have been inconsistent about how much mental illness contributes to this behavior and how much substance abuse and other factors do."





Percentage of people convicted of at least one violent crime, 1973–2006




Percentage of people convicted of at least one violent crime, 1973–2004
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K 



Joined: 09 Sep 2011


PostPosted: Thu Sep 17, 2020 2:08 pm
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eddiesmith wrote:
It was interesting to hear the Police bloke today actually spoke some sense...

But too often Police have been scared to use their cars to ram other vehicles, but now they feel inclined to run people over.

But the bloke who stomped on his head won't be a police officer for very long you wouldn't think and would be lucky to stay a free man.

Police bloke (assume it's the same one) called the mowing down by car "concerning". The rammer has been banned from driving a police vehicle for now. (Presumably that means he has not been stood down with full pay.)

As for "inclined to run people over", maybe they are more inclined for some people than for others.


Last edited by K on Thu Sep 17, 2020 2:12 pm; edited 2 times in total
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Pies4shaw Leo

pies4shaw


Joined: 08 Oct 2007


PostPosted: Thu Sep 17, 2020 2:10 pm
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Yes, they didn’t run down the stupid anti-lockdown protesters when they had the chance last week. It does seem a bit selective.
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K 



Joined: 09 Sep 2011


PostPosted: Thu Sep 17, 2020 2:14 pm
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I'm still shocked by the front-page pic of an anti-lockdown protester punching a very small- and young-looking police officer.

Maybe, for their own safety, people with mental health issues should tell police they are anti-lockdown protesters.

................................

Meanwhile, Channel 9 asked the two involved hospitals/health services for comment. One did not respond. The other pointed them to some website that (in Channel 9's opinion) did not have relevance to the issue.
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K 



Joined: 09 Sep 2011


PostPosted: Thu Sep 17, 2020 2:26 pm
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K wrote:
...
I'm highly critical of the hospital staff too... Why call police? Did health workers think they had him under arrest and he was an escaping prisoner? That sort of attitude is part of the problem. They should not have the power to infringe his civil liberties like that.
....

Nine reports: "The Northern Hospital phoned Victoria Police out of concern for Tim's welfare."


Well, that worked out well, didn't it? "We are mowing you down with our car out of our concern for your welfare."
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K 



Joined: 09 Sep 2011


PostPosted: Thu Sep 17, 2020 2:56 pm
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Disability care watchdog has issued just one fine despite 8000 complaints

https://www.theage.com.au/politics/federal/disability-care-watchdog-has-issued-just-one-fine-despite-8000-complaints-20200916-p55w7q.html

"The scandal-plagued disability sector will get $22 billion from the federal government this financial year, but an independent review found the system left vulnerable people open to harm and neglect.

... the solitary $12,000 fine was handed to now-banned provider Integrity Care after its client Ann Marie Smith died in "appalling circumstances" earlier this year.

The South Australian woman, 54, died on April 6 from severe septic shock, organ failure, severe pressure sores, malnutrition and issues connected with her cerebral palsy."



[Does this mean a disabled person's life is valued at $12,000??]
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Tannin Capricorn

Can't remember


Joined: 06 Aug 2006
Location: Huon Valley Tasmania

PostPosted: Thu Sep 17, 2020 3:47 pm
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^ Only if her death gets on national TV.

Ordinary disabled people's lives are worth $4.20. $2.50 if you buy more than three at a time.

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roar 



Joined: 01 Sep 2004


PostPosted: Thu Sep 17, 2020 5:14 pm
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Tannin wrote:
I'm talking prison for bad crimes (basically any crime involving significant violence, and selected other crimes of similar gravity), and no discount because you were out of your brain on drugs. Like this ...

"Your Worship, I'm sorry. I wasn't bad, it wasn't my fault, it was the ice I was on that made me do it."

"Prisoner, I don't give a damn if you were hitting up drain cleaner at the time. Or 100% clean. You did what you did and for that the penalty is such-and-such. Drugs or no drugs. Your actions, your responsibility."

Simply using drugs shouldn't be a crime at all. Do what you damn well like in the privacy of your own home, and with due care for the rights of others, notably children. It's your body, if you want to wreck it, that's your right. (Note that this does not allow you to endanger others by, e.g., driving while drunk.)

It's all about requiring people to take responsibility for their own actions. And equally, about helping people, working WITH people to avoid crime in the first place. Carrot and stick. Both are needed.


I couldn't agree more, and am constantly annoyed that such a simple, common-sense approach isn't used. Once again, I blame the magistrates for allowing these excuses.

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stui magpie Gemini

Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.


Joined: 03 May 2005
Location: In flagrante delicto

PostPosted: Thu Sep 17, 2020 5:21 pm
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^

It should be common sense. If you get caught driving while drunk, or if you hit someone you don't get off by claiming your judgement was impaired by alcohol, it was the alcohol's fault not mine, same should apply for drugs.

You drank the booze, you took the drugs, you get sentenced according to the crime.

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Pies4shaw Leo

pies4shaw


Joined: 08 Oct 2007


PostPosted: Thu Sep 17, 2020 6:11 pm
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https://www.utas.edu.au/__data/assets/pdf_file/0009/1223838/Ambiguous-factors.pdf
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eddiesmith Taurus

Lets get ready to Rumble


Joined: 23 Nov 2004
Location: Lexus Centre

PostPosted: Thu Sep 17, 2020 7:54 pm
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Pies4shaw wrote:
Yes, they didn’t run down the stupid anti-lockdown protesters when they had the chance last week. It does seem a bit selective.


Not sure police vehicles driving through QVM would be a good look...
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