Age differences in relationships: good or bad?

[David]

For a while now, I've noticed a trend in some progressive circles – the same ones that might be open-minded towards non-normative arrangements like polyamory, BDSM, sex work and (needless to say) same-sex and interracial relationships – of people taking an extremely hostile approach towards relationships with large age differences, particularly if they involve older men and younger women, which is seen by some as a commonly (or even inherently) predatory dynamic.

Of course, this isn't exactly a position unique to progressives; I'd argue that, even if they're somewhat more normalised than, say, relationships between older women and younger men (and not uncommonly depicted in popular culture), social stigma has nonetheless existed around such relationships for a very long time. Whatever the circumstances, if you're a 40-year-old man dating a 19-year-old woman, I suspect you're going to be dealing with a lot of raised eyebrows (and more than a little open animosity and mockery). So I'd be interested in others' thoughts on this: are such arrangements generally unhealthy and deserving of suspicion and social judgement, or is prejudice against them just another kind of bigotry?

This post was triggered by two things that happened over the past couple of days. The first was an attack by left-wing journalist Naomi Lachance on Twitter on Glenn Greenwald (for those who don't know, a US journalist who was a key player in the Edward Snowden leaks, and later went on to found news site The Intercept) for his marriage to Brazilian politician David Miranda, who was 19 when they started going out (Greenwald was 37 at the time). You can grab some popcorn and read the exchange here, if you're so inclined: https://twitter.com/lachancenaomi/status/1273949314574942209

The first thing to know about this relationship is that Greenwald and Miranda been together for 15 years and Miranda, now a prominent Brazilian politician, hardly seems a victim of exploitation (and, as you might expect, both he and Greenwald have responded angrily in the Twitter thread above, denouncing the criticism as homophobic). So it seems a pretty odd thing to go after someone for, on many levels. But in many respects, Lachance was merely being consistent in applying the same standards to a gay relationship that many apply to straight relationships (at least, when the man is older).

That brings in the second trigger for this: a long Facebook rant the other day by a female Facebook friend, who is generally open-minded towards unconventional relationships but has nonetheless often expressed hostility towards relationships between older men and younger women. Some of her post deals with personal stuff, which I've left out, but here's the rest of it:

[stui magpie]

So I selected the first option, don't care, as I don't think there's anything inherently wrong with an age difference or that it automatically has a power imbalance. The only thing unbalanced is your Facebook friend.

Having said that, whenever I see the rich old farts with the standard big titted blonde, I roll my eyes, but like you said both parties are getting what they want from that arrangement. It's more of a transactional relationship rather than one based on "love"

It used to be reasonably common back in the day when women didn't have careers other than being a housewife. Bloke would get established in a job first, get an income stream then look to marry, regularly some one 10 years younger.

There can be predatory behaviour from blokes against younger women and the same from young women toward older blokes relying on the brain not working properly when dick is stiff

[Pies4shaw]

I think people can do what they like. By way of brief comment, though, I am concerned:

- that the distinction between 17 and 18 is a largely spurious and merely legal one, so that people who are 19 are probably in many cases too impressionable to be capable of making decisions that will not prove to be destructive for them in the long run, so I am always concerned for the people in such relationships, even though I think they should be allowed to ruin their lives in any way they choose;

- by the phenomenon of narcissistic sociopaths trading in their wives for a newer model. That may be good in some cases for the newer model but it tends to be life-changingly awful for the.older model. Of course, relationships can fade over time but, too often, “We grew apart” is code for “I’d like a prettier, younger one, please”;

- that some men simply prefer to exploit the power that comes with their position and status than to try to reach an accommodation with themselves about being old. This is not the place for a discussion about well-heeled professionals who can’t keep their hands to themselves - but it is fair to say that there is a demanding two-year old screaming to get out of many successful people and more of them than one would wish do try to satisfy their two-year old brain by reaching for things they shouldn’t. Sometimes that manifests with apparent consent, sometimes it doesn’t (Hi Dyson). In many cases, the power imbalance is such that consent is probably not really possible. Typical examples that I could neither confirm nor deny that I had seen in my professional life might include wealthy partners in large commercial law firms trading in their wives, once the children have left home, for the new secretary or graduate solicitor, or public servants who start out in relatively modest positions and climb the greasy pole of success and decide that they are “entitled” to renegotiate an arrangement that, in many cases, has required their other partner to sacrifice their life chances to carry the burden, so the other person could get get where they are.

How one views such things will tend to be influenced by (apart from the obvious question of whether the person doing the judging is also on the lookout for a younger model) how one views the purpose of a relationship and whether one is or is not interested in the cruel financial consequences that frequently flow from the ending of relationships. In that respect, it is important to recognise that the social relationship between two people also carries with it a raft of economic consequences.

[stui magpie]

To be fair, as I implied in my post, not all the predatory behaviour is one sided.

I've seen examples of the lecherous bloke after the pretty young things while the missus raises the kids,

I've seen examples of the pretty young thing deciding she likes the look of that wallet with legs and enticing him away from the older model

And I've seen examples of the bloke in a loveless marriage, waiting until the kids are 18 so that he can move on, as well as the missus turning off the tap to everything once the kids leave home.

Regardless, and this may come across as cold, the "older model" doesn't exactly end up out on the street the way the law works, she'd at minimum get a decent house.

[Dave The Man]

Be Okay as long as it's not Stupid like a 30 something going out with someone in there 70's or 80's

[ronrat]

I live in Thailand with a girl 21 years my younger and that is comsidered normal. Most rich asians have concubines etc . Donald Trump and Boris also have gone for younger moldels. A German bloke here about mid 60s is married to a Thai woman near his age. He4 has an arrangement that his 30 year old girlfriend lives in one room and his wife in the other bedroom. It seems to work. The younger one stays home watching tv while his wife goes to the bar with Horst . One girl does the cooking, the other cleaning. They seem happy so why let it bother anyone including journalists and social commentators.

[stui magpie]

A 30 something going out with someone in their 70's + is a business strategy,

Fvck them to death, inherit cash, enjoy never having to spend time in an office.

[David]

Interesting points, Stui and P4S – I didn’t mention married guys having affairs with younger women, but that’s obviously a big factor in many of these stories and also likely a key part of a lot of the vitriol that’s aimed at these relationships in popular discourse.

Obviously the ethics of such affairs will vary considerably (particularly if they involve underlings at work), but I would tend to take a slightly more forgiving approach to them, without dismissing any of the issues you raise in your post, P4S. Here are a few (perhaps unpopular) counterpoints that I think are worth considering:

1) I get people’s instinctive disapproval at the trope of the father skipping out the moment the kids leave school, and how much of a betrayal that must feel for the wife left alone with her youth in the rearview mirror, in a society that renders older women invisible and desexualised. I also understand that, for many men in dysfunctional and unhappy relationships, there’s a feeling of responsibility towards children and family that means they don’t leave years earlier. There’s still a lot of stigma against divorce, both external and internalised, and I think many unhappy couples are too afraid of traumatising their children – and there’s no doubt that it is often traumatic – to do what they should do and allow each other to go their separate ways. So I suspect that at least some of these men have genuinely emotionally checked out and are probably helping nobody by sticking around; and if, once they have left, they have a second shot at happiness with a women who does (or doesn’t) happen to be younger and both are entering the relationship for the right reasons, then I don’t necessarily see that sequence of events as an ethical transgression. The "replaced" wife deserves the chance to find someone else too, rather than growing old in a loveless marriage.

2) I think, to some extent, biology plays a role in all this – I think it’s pretty widely accepted that, in evolutionary terms, men of all ages are geared towards finding younger women sexually attractive, and that younger women are often much more amenable to the idea of being with older men, and I think we all accept the important place sexual desire plays in partner choice. That’s a pretty unpleasant dynamic for older women to have to negotiate, and I can see why, sometimes, they stand to lose a lot more from a forty- or fiftysomething divorce than their male partners do (cue perhaps debatable ev-psych observations about the societal purpose and function of marriage). Of course, lest we get too carried away with this stuff, it’s obviously perfectly commonplace for people to continue to find their partners attractive as they grow old together, and there are certain forms of emotional connection that you’re much more likely to find with your wife of forty years than with a woman old enough to be your daughter. So I have no doubt that quite a lot of these men are a little too fixated on the physical and sacrificing the possibility of deeper attachment. But if that’s all a sign of lacking emotional maturity, then in some ways maybe a younger woman is more on their level anyway! (And unlike my Facebook friend, I don’t necessarily see that as inherently evil; immature men need love too!)

3) I mentioned polyamory offhand at the beginning of my post, and honestly nothing makes me feel more supportive of it than the scenarios being discussed above. I’ve had the somewhat bewildering experience of talking to a co-worker in her 40s who admitted to no longer being sexually attracted to her husband, continually rejects his sexual advances and yet is still horrified about the idea of him cheating on her! I’m not saying sex is everything in a relationship, but it astonishes me that anyone, male or female, could tolerate the idea of such a lifelong arrangement, even with love and companionship. This is where I think monogamy can end up being kind of pathological, and where totally deciding your relationship arrangement based on who you want to have sex with at a given point in time leads to so much chaos and heartbreak. Here, the less-than-progressive cliché of the French wife who allows her husband to have mistresses so long as she remains no. 1 has some appeal, but of course it’s not all about men; I think women need to feel liberated to explore other sexual experience too, and it needn’t necessarily come at the cost of a stable marriage or family. Anyhow, that’s all something that every couple (and the individuals therein) has to wrestle with on their own and come to their own conclusions about, but I feel like it could be a way to satisfy some of the misery and dissatisfaction that leads to so many marriage breakdowns.

If there’s a prevailing sentiment that I try to bring to these matters, it’s empathy. Life is short, and it’s a beautiful thing to fall in love and feel desire for someone. So if two people can achieve happiness together and are being honest with themselves and those around them, I don’t feel that I’m in a position to judge.

Edit: only just saw your post now, ronrat – that’s another sometimes-frowned-upon kind of relationship (the older white Australian guy with the younger South-East Asian woman) that I think no-one has the right to judge, even if some such relationships lean a little towards the transactional. Again, no-one’s forcing you or your partner to be there, and you both have a right to pursue whatever you feel will make you happy (I hope that’s not too obvious, but I think it’s worth saying).

[Wokko]

Often those relationships come down to people understanding their own value and finding a partner in their 'ball park'. Men's sexual value often comes down to status, power and money and women's to youth and beauty. I certainly don't begrudge people using their assets to get what they want out of life.

It's biologically ingrained in some sense for men to seek young, fertile women and young women to find men who can provide for them and any offspring that eventuate. Expecting humans to ignore millions of years of evolution is pretty crazy.

As for your Facebook friend it sounds like she has the desire to "cock block" potential suitors for young women, that's really creepy and weird as it is and reeks of jealousy. Hating that men her age find young pretty things attractive and the hot younger women reciprocating. The side she doesn't seem to notice or care about is the young men left hanging with nobody to pair up with. They want the young women too, and unless they have shall we say a physical advantage then they're shit out of luck. Thankfully there's many, many humans with all kinds of preferences

As for comments about relationships I think that the best thing for society is monogamous male and female pairs raising children in stable homes wherever possible. In saying that there has always been polyamory in its various guises within that framework. Couples who swing, men who have mistresses and affairs, women who do the same, Couples where both parties are sleeping around either secretly or with knowledge. Hell there are even couples who like to watch their significant other get it on and they just enjoy a drink and a live show. Let a thousand flowers bloom as they say, but they should probably bloom behind closed doors while children think mum and dad love each other and them and that's the whole world.

[Lazza]

My simplistic life strategy is to live and let live. To each their own when making legal choices.

[stui magpie]

I thought of this thread when I saw this article. https://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/victoria/former-lord-mayor-robert-doyle-moves-on-with-new-partner/news-story/6c5bf9063eb7f5d014825da214f4f376

Ex Lord Mayor Robert Doyl has a new missus after his second marriage broke up. The 67 year old's new squeeze is in her 30s.

[luvdids]

Ewwww


Only 'ewwww' because what right minded woman of ANY age would go there? Ewww

(reminded immediately of David's post some years ago about Doyle wishing he was important, red faced, something about a salami... can't remember all of it but know I laughed at it)

[David]

^ That was an epic rant indeed, LD. All the same, whether he wants to have sweaty, red-faced, Liberal Party-style sexual relations with a 30-year-old or someone his own age or older doesn't really concern me, haha.

[David]

Here's a piece that reflects many of my thoughts on the topic:

http://bostonreview.net/gender-sexuality/jessa-crispin-pathologizing-desire

[Sicks Bux]

You seem very interested in this topic, David. You're not thinking about trading the ol girl in for a newer model are you?