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US forces in Afghanistan, 2020 and beyond

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Pies4shaw Leo

pies4shaw


Joined: 08 Oct 2007


PostPosted: Sun Oct 11, 2020 7:24 am
Post subject: US forces in Afghanistan, 2020 and beyondReply with quote

<split from US election thread – thanks, David for BBMods>

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/taliban-on-trump-we-hope-he-will-win-the-election-withdraw-us-troops/

Is endorsement by the Taliban the thing he needs to get his campaign back on track?
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David Libra

Speak about destruction


Joined: 27 Jul 2003
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 11, 2020 7:42 am
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On the flipside, what does it say about Biden and his likely approach to foreign policy that Trump is seen by them as more likely to remove US military presence from Afghanistan (a goal that, I presume, most of us here support)?
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Pies4shaw Leo

pies4shaw


Joined: 08 Oct 2007


PostPosted: Sun Oct 11, 2020 8:47 am
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I think it probably tells you that Trump would prefer to use the army against his own citizens.

Anyway, how many endorsements do we anticipate he needs from terrorist organizations?
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Tannin 

Can't remember


Joined: 06 Aug 2006
Location: Ballarat

PostPosted: Sun Oct 11, 2020 10:11 am
Post subject: Reply with quote

David wrote:
On the flipside, what does it say about Biden and his likely approach to foreign policy that Trump is seen by them as more likely to remove US military presence from Afghanistan (a goal that, I presume, most of us here support)?


It tells us that you support the Taliban.

Not a good look, David.

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Tannin 

Can't remember


Joined: 06 Aug 2006
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 11, 2020 10:13 am
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Pies4shaw wrote:
I think it probably tells you that Trump would prefer to use the army against his own citizens.

Anyway, how many endorsements do we anticipate he needs from terrorist organizations?


He really only needs the endorsement of the evil ringmaster pulling the strings of most of the terrorism in the world today, and he already has that - Trump has been an obvious Putin lackey since day one.

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David Libra

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Joined: 27 Jul 2003
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 11, 2020 11:09 am
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Tannin wrote:
David wrote:
On the flipside, what does it say about Biden and his likely approach to foreign policy that Trump is seen by them as more likely to remove US military presence from Afghanistan (a goal that, I presume, most of us here support)?


It tells us that you support the Taliban.

Not a good look, David.


Unmitigated nonsense. Conservatives made hay about Al-Qaeda preferring Obama over McCain back in 2008 and most people on the other side saw that for the militaristic dog-whistle it was. Now Biden supporters are doing the exact same.

https://www.sbs.com.au/news/sudanese-bin-laden-linked-islamist-wants-obama-win

Of course dictators and terrorist organisations don’t like US bombs raining down on them and US soldiers patrolling their homelands. But only people fully subscribed to cartoon world – and those who have learned absolutely nothing from history, recent included – think that means that US foreign intervention is a good thing.

Fact is, the US never should have gone into Afghanistan, and at the very least should have left well over a decade ago. If you support them staying there, you are backing endless war. This is another instance of Trump outflanking Biden on the left and libs dutifully adopting the neocon rhetoric they once claimed to despise in response.

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Last edited by David on Sun Oct 11, 2020 11:17 am; edited 1 time in total
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Pies4shaw Leo

pies4shaw


Joined: 08 Oct 2007


PostPosted: Sun Oct 11, 2020 11:16 am
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So, you don't think it's funny that Trump is governing with the Taliban's support?
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David Libra

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 11, 2020 12:03 pm
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It’s seemed clear for at least a decade that any way forward in Afghanistan is going to require a power-sharing arrangement with the Taliban. Maybe some observers with more awareness of the political dynamics there can enlighten me otherwise, but that’s the situation to my knowledge.

So, no, it’s not really funny or noteworthy in any respect – and what’s least funny of all is the backroom dealings behind Biden’s team and the rogues’ gallery of old Bush administration stooges who are disgruntled by Trump’s isolationism and who see a new opportunity to push their barrow in a Democratic presidency.

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Tannin 

Can't remember


Joined: 06 Aug 2006
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 11, 2020 3:46 pm
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David wrote:
Tannin wrote:
David wrote:
On the flipside, what does it say about Biden and his likely approach to foreign policy that Trump is seen by them as more likely to remove US military presence from Afghanistan (a goal that, I presume, most of us here support)?


It tells us that you support the Taliban.

Not a good look, David.


Unmitigated nonsense.


On the contrary, you have now admitted it. (In the remainder of your post, not quoted but on display above.) Shame on you for that.

You are somehow managing to pretend that a US exit from Afghanistan Trump-style would somehow be a good thing. On what planet?

Trump's exit method, as we have seen, is to abandon everything all at once and run away. He has done it in other places, and it has been a disaster on every level. The worst possible thing you could do in Afghanistan would be to simply cut and run, leaving the entire country unprepared and at the mercy of the Taliban - who in case you haven't woken up and smelled the coffee yet, are near enough as makes no difference to being the worst bastards on the entire planet.

And you are supporting them. You should be ashamed.

The various foreign invasions of that unhappy country - USA, USSR, various others prior to that - were ill-advised and achieved nothing for anyone, bar an endless agony in that place, and massive drainings of both blood and treasure in the aggressor nations. However, to leave Trump style - unplanned and unprepared - would be to consign the entire nation straight back into unmitigated hell. It would also very likely spill over into very bad trouble in Pakistan (the stability of which rests on a razor's edge already), Turkey, and very likely also Iraq and central northern Africa. The US exit needs to be slow and steady and planned in such a way that the country can survive.

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David Libra

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 11, 2020 4:05 pm
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^ slow and steady = sometime next century? Last time around, Obama and Biden inherited a seven-year-old war and managed to more than double its longevity. Sure they didn’t cut and run; they dutifully stayed the course just as you’re suggesting. And here we are in 2020 with Biden proposing more of the same.

As noted above, it’s not as if the US are sitting on a cage full of sea monsters that will crawl out the minute they get up to stretch their legs. The Taliban are already out and about running parts of the country, and are in a negotiating position with the US. I actually think there’s a good argument to be made that US departure will change little.

I’m under no illusions about how bad the Taliban are, of course (although there are plenty of equally bad if not worse regimes and subnational entities around the world). But the US are just as much of a force for bad and just as unwelcome, and until they realise that – that no-one much wants them there and they’re only making matters worse – they’re going to keep making the same old mistakes (if we can be so charitable as to call them mistakes). So while a tactical, staged withdrawal is ideal, there are worse things than cutting and running.

On that note, this is an eye-opening interview:

https://www.jacobinmag.com/2019/12/afghanistan-war-imperialism-obama-trump

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watt price tully Scorpio



Joined: 15 May 2007


PostPosted: Sun Oct 11, 2020 6:11 pm
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David wrote:
On the flipside, what does it say about Biden and his likely approach to foreign policy that Trump is seen by them as more likely to remove US military presence from Afghanistan (a goal that, I presume, most of us here support)?


Well you the Taliban and some nutter Trump supporters.

What does the average Mohammed and Fatima say in Afghanistan though?

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Tannin 

Can't remember


Joined: 06 Aug 2006
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 11, 2020 6:59 pm
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David wrote:
I’m under no illusions about how bad the Taliban are, of course (although there are plenty of equally bad if not worse regimes and subnational entities around the world).


Name three.

(In your answer, be careful to avoid naming organisations which are Taliban-inspired or Taliban-supported - ones which, in other words, flourish while and because the Taliban flourishes.)

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David Libra

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 11, 2020 7:25 pm
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Well, for starters, I don’t accept that bit of goalpost shifting at the end – to whatever extent the Taliban can be argued to have inspired various theocratic regimes, the latter would of course survive and flourish without the existence of some Afghan warlords terrorising central Asia (who are, in any case, not going anywhere whether the US stays or goes). But having put that to one side:

1. Ramzan Kazyrov’s Chechnya: probably the most hostile jurisdiction for gay people in the world – they are routinely beaten, lynched and disappeared with government co-operation. Torture is also commonplace for political opponents:

2. Rodrigo Duterte’s Philippines: has overseen many thousands of extrajudicial killings as part of an ostensible war on drugs that has seen impoverished low-level users murdered in the street. Journalists criticising the government are routinely killed or jailed.

3. Kim Jong-un’s North Korea: I think we all know the drill here.

And a bonus one:

4. Saudi Arabia. Basically as bad as the Taliban in every way (public executions, mass murdering civilians in a neighbouring country, sponsors of international terrorism), but good because they’re on our side.

All places the US isn’t invading tomorrow or stationing troops in for the next 40 years, not because the suffering of people there is any less than in Taliban-held Afghanistan, but because they don’t currently suit strategic interests. And also because invasion and occupation is a counterproductive and unsustainable approach to remedying foreign human rights abuses.

(I could have also named any number of brutally run African countries / breakaway states, Middle Eastern theocracies or ex-Soviet central Asian republics where repression is severe and state-sanctioned violence against women and minorities is rife, but you only asked for three and I’m feeling lazy.)

watt price tully wrote:
David wrote:
On the flipside, what does it say about Biden and his likely approach to foreign policy that Trump is seen by them as more likely to remove US military presence from Afghanistan (a goal that, I presume, most of us here support)?


Well you the Taliban and some nutter Trump supporters.

What does the average Mohammed and Fatima say in Afghanistan though?


"God bless the USA", I think. I heard it on Fox News. Wink

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stui magpie Gemini

Oh, the Premiership's a cakewalk


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 11, 2020 7:38 pm
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^

You missed the obvious one, China.

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David Libra

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 11, 2020 7:39 pm
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I was thinking of including them, but thought the post was long enough. But yes – what’s a few concentration camps between friends?
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