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David 
I dare you to try
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda
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| Post subject: America and the Middle East |  |
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<split from "Israeli–Palestinian conflict" thread>
Does anyone have the vague, uneasy feeling that we're slipping into another world war?
https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/suspected-jordan-strikes-southern-syria-kill-10-monitors-local-media-2024-01-18/
Last I checked, while this is happening, Israel is bombing Gaza as well as conducting strikes in Lebanon, Iraq and Yemen; Hezbollah in Lebanon is firing rockets at Israel; the Houthis in Yemen, who are aligned with Iran, are disrupting international shipping in the Gulf; America and the UK are bombing Yemen; and Pakistan and Iran are conducting strikes against one another. It's not hard to see Iran and America getting drawn further into this conflict, and even Russia coming in on Iran's side. So these are extremely dangerous times, and I hope all involved take care to stop this escalating further – and that has to start quite urgently with the Western powers calling Israel off and pushing back against those hawks in the Israeli government who see an opportunity to confront Iran directly.
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Last edited by David on Mon Feb 05, 2024 9:46 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Culprit 
Joined: 06 Feb 2003
Location: Port Melbourne
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| I do, many have said it would start in the Middle East and what we have is a clear indication that everyone is eager to kill each other and no one wants peace. I didn't have Iran attacking Pakistan on my 2024 Bingo card yet here we are. The Houthis are the ones that could start the next invasion from the USA/West. Nice rich oil fields and Minerals and I am waiting for WMDs to be mentioned. China is sitting back and enjoying what's going on. |
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stui magpie 
Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.
Joined: 03 May 2005
Location: In flagrante delicto
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^
Iran is the big agitator. This whole mess is basically a war between the US and Iran using proxies.
Interestingly though, USA is increasing the volume of it's call for an end to hostilities and the formation of a legitimate Palestinian state, which Benny the Net completely rejects.
It's also the last thing Iran wants as it would likely reduce tensions in the area.
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Every dead body on Mt Everest was once a highly motivated person, so maybe just calm the **** down. |
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Magpietothemax 
magpietothemax
Joined: 28 Apr 2013
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| stui magpie wrote: | ^
Iran is the big agitator. This whole mess is basically a war between the US and Iran using proxies.
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....umm....Iran did not reduce Iraqi society to rubble in two illegal wars of aggression (1990 and 2003), Iran did not provide Israel with conventional and nuclear weapons, Iran did not organise Saudi Arabia to carry out a proxy war in Yemen since 2015 and nor has Iran carried out strikes on yemen in the last few days, Iran did not invade Somalia, Iran did not reduce Libya to rubble and a hell on earth between warring Islamic militia, Iran did not carry out illegal drone strikes in Pakistan, Iran does not have a fleet of its navy, including aircraft carriers and unknown numbers of submarines, sitting close to the US coast....
and so the list goes on.
The main agitator in the Middle East is the US, and its stooge Israel, and as David posted above, this conflict is threatening to become a world war, as the US seeks to establish full domination over the Middle East. Iran is the next target of US imperialism, along with Russia.
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stui magpie
Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.
Joined: 03 May 2005
Location: In flagrante delicto
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David
I dare you to try
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda
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More about the Houthis and why the US military response seems to be failing here:
https://theintercept.com/2024/01/19/houthis-yemen-biden-airstrikes/
| Quote: | Battle-hardened in a brutal civil war with a Saudi-backed Yemeni government-in-exile, the Houthis look unready to back down, even inviting the wider conflict.
“The Houthis absolutely want this conflict,” said Iona Craig, a journalist and political specialist focused on Yemen. “It is part of their ideology, whose anti-American element was formed during the period of the U.S. invasion of Iraq. They now very much see themselves as the defenders of Palestinians and the people of Gaza.”
[…]
The Houthis, officially known as Ansarallah, emerged decades ago as a movement opposed to the perceived corruption of the Yemeni government. For the past several years, the group has been at war with the Saudi-led coalition in Yemen and are currently in peace negotiations to end the conflict. The U.S. played a key role in the civil war, heavily arming — and for a time giving direct assistance to — an air campaign by Saudi Arabia and the United Arab Emirates that inflicted huge civilian casualties. The onslaught failed to defeat the Houthis.
The civil war became a training ground where the Houthis learned to outmaneuver vastly superior U.S.-made weapons — especially air power — in its current operation in the Red Sea. The rebels use inexpensive anti-ship missiles and small boats to attack the shipping vessels, utilizing the advantage of light and mobile forces that drive up costs and weaken the effectiveness of enemies’ attacks from the air.
“The Houthis have a big force, but they rely on distributing their power broadly across the territory that they control. They rely more on being mobile than on heavy infrastructure,” said Baraa Shiban, a political analyst on Yemen and associate fellow at the Royal United Services Institute. “They have survived a long air campaign by two of the stronger militaries in the region, Saudi Arabia and the UAE, and have adapted how to move and operate their forces accordingly.” |
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LaurieHolden 
Floreat Gymnorhina tyrannica
Joined: 22 Feb 2009
Location: Victoria Park
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| David wrote: | | Does anyone have the vague, uneasy feeling that we're slipping into another World War? |
The only difference is US soil hasn't been a target, although if Israel is viewed as a proxy US territory / 53rd State, then this explains the red tooth and claw response. From 1948, Israel morphed to become the ex-utero US beachhead in the Middle East.
Following the attacks on US soil in 1942 and 2001, the response was devastating and allowed the US to take after their old masters to embark on their own version of Colonialism. Control the trade and control the money supply.
Colonial expansion accelerated due to the desire to control trade routes, and the race against other colonial powers to control as much trade as possible. And that usually meant a war.
So let's just call it what it is, a War. In time it'll be another The History Channel conflict in colour series, and we'll sit back scratching our heads while life imitates this 21st century update of The Art of War.
Whether it's The Boer War, WW1 or WW2, the Cold War, The Korean War, The Vietnam War the one common factor is all of these conflicts resulted in displacement en masse and resultant humanitarian crisis.
Within three years (1948 to 1951), immigration doubled the Jewish population of Israel and left an indelible* imprint on the region. Overall, 700,000 Jews settled in Israel during this period while an estimated half of that number of Palestinian Arabs evacuated. I'll leave the mortality count to those fascinated with this scorecard.
Indelible is a crude way to express what is happening again, while most are concerned about who started it.
*means impossible to remove by washing or in any other way. The word comes from the Greek palimpsēstos or palimpsest, meaning “scraped again.”
It's the humanitarian aspect we're all in agreeance with, correct?...
According to the **United Nations**, in 2022, **84 million people** were forcibly displaced due to conflict, violence, and human rights violations.
The UN also estimated that by the end of 2022, **339 million people** would need humanitarian assistance.
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"The Club's not Jock, Ted and Gerry" (& Eddie)
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Magpietothemax
magpietothemax
Joined: 28 Apr 2013
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The conflict just escalated. US now bombing Iraq and Syria using the deaths of 3 US soldiers as the pretext for ramping up its direct intervention into this conflict. The US is now in the process of implementing its long planned agenda of "resolving the Palestinian question" and then eliminating the proxies of Iran and finally Iran itself. The logic is unfolding before our very eyes, if only we have the will to look. The US and it's NATO allies seek the unrestrained domination of the Middle East, as part of their strategy to dismember the Russian Federation and encircle their main rival: China. Iran is their immediate target as Iran and it's network of allies is the last remaining obstacle to complete control over the Middle East. Israel is the spearhead for their plans to recolonise the Middle East.
The contours of World War 3 are rapidly appearing on the canvas.
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pietillidie
Joined: 07 Jan 2005
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^By god you say some silly things. They couldn't even control Afghanistan, and now they're going to control the entire Middle East? As I say, this is every bit as irrational as your far-right counterparts who were certain that Muslims were going to take over the world.
You're not even grasping the basic maths, for goodness' sake. Stop parroting cult hysteria and use the basic capabilities of your own brain. It's tiresome having to try to ground you in earthly physics: Again, no, America is not going to control the Middle East. Its own southern border might be a start, but even that's too hard.
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David
I dare you to try
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda
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I don't know if I can agree with that, PTID. We know for a fact that elements in US politics and the national security state (John Bolton was a prominent one, but hardly Robinson Crusoe) have long had ambitions regarding Iran. A military victory for the US there would, indeed, be something like control over the Middle East – because with the Saudis and other allies effectively policing half the region, Iran and its sphere of influence are really the main stumbling block. So there's certainly no shortage of motivation there; the question is capacity.
When you look at things in that context, the Iraq War – which America "lost", much as they "lost" Afghanistan – looks more like a success than a blunder for the US. America essentially took a big regional power player in Saddam Hussein's Iraq and converted it into a vacuum where other people's proxy wars are conducted. That it became a breeding ground for ISIS seemed like a pretty damning outcome at the time, but the true result is one step closer to hegemony.
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pietillidie
Joined: 07 Jan 2005
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^Not even close. You're confusing your mind's eye of the Middle East with the actual Middle East. The US can't even 'control' its closest ally, Israel, but it's going to 'control' 400 million people across:
Bahrain
Cyprus
Egypt
Iran
Iraq
Israel
Jordan
Kuwait
Lebanon
Oman
Qatar
Saudi Arabia
Syria
Turkey
United Arab Emirates
Yemen
Palestine
You have to ground these things in the actual geography and what America has shown in reality it can 'control'.
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In the end the rain comes down, washes clean the streets of a blue sky town.
Help Nick's: http://www.magpies.net/nick/bb/fundraising.htm |
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stui magpie
Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.
Joined: 03 May 2005
Location: In flagrante delicto
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Why would the US want to control the middle east anyway?
And before anyone says Oil, the US produces enough oil domestically, they don't need middle eastern oil.
_________________
Every dead body on Mt Everest was once a highly motivated person, so maybe just calm the **** down. |
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David
I dare you to try
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda
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^ Surely you must be kidding, Stui. That's one of the wildest things I've ever read on here! 
PTID, around half of those countries are already effectively under America's sway, largely via Saudi Arabia. It's not "control" in the sense that those countries make their own decisions, have their own domestic political issues and expend their own resources – much as Belarus does while advancing Putin's agenda – but the important point is that their core geopolitical principles are aligned. That's all you need as a superpower. The goal is hegemony, not micromanagement.
Israel may be a rogue state, but they're (from the perspective of the US and its allies) still our rogue state. Surely none of this is contentious.
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stui magpie
Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.
Joined: 03 May 2005
Location: In flagrante delicto
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Then do some research and you'll find I'm right. The US produces enough oil to cover their domestic needs, they still import some but only around 20% comes from the middle east, but they also export oil. They're actually reaching the point where they will soon be a net exporter.
Edit, they became a net exporter in 2022.
https://www.eia.gov/energyexplained/oil-and-petroleum-products/imports-and-exports.php
And here's where they get the oil from.
https://www.eia.gov/tools/faqs/faq.php?id=727&t=6
So back to my question, why would the USA want to control the middle east if it's not for oil?
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Every dead body on Mt Everest was once a highly motivated person, so maybe just calm the **** down. |
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Magpietothemax
magpietothemax
Joined: 28 Apr 2013
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Why would the US want to control the Middle East???
It actually has little to do at all with the domestic needs of the US economy.
The US is in a struggle with its rivals for control over markets, raw materials...Oil happens to be one of the most vital of raw materials. If the US controls the Middle East, it can use this as a massive weapon to choke the supply and therefore strangle its rival economies, such as China and its so called NATO "allies" (there is no loyalty among thieves), unless they fall in line with the interests of US imperialism.
Surely this is obvious to anyone who is watching.
As for PTID's argument, as usual he is blind to the reality in front of him. As David says, it is an open secret that the US has long held plans to eliminate both Iraq ("mission accomplished") and Iran in its drive to control the Middle East. The rivalry of China and its threat to usurp US economic supremacy is driving the US to extreme recklessness, and to think that "failure" to achieve any of its aims in Afghanistan would act as a restraining factor is a fantasy.
Finally, PTID refers to the inability of the US to control its southern border, regurgitating the propaganda of Republican fascists and Trump. Yet PTID claims to abhor Trump. There is no system or coherence in his thinking - at least his political thinking.
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