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Who says white supremacists are stupid?

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David Libra

I dare you to try


Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda

PostPosted: Mon Jul 29, 2019 12:12 pm
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thesoretoothsayer wrote:
Here's an example of the problem with the "racism = prejudice + power" thing.

South Africa, prior to 1994, was an apartheid state where whites had political, cultural and economic hegemony. Since 1994 blacks hold political and cultural power and economically whites, whilst still prominent, no longer have hegemony.

According to the "old" (real) definition of racism if a white South African called a black guy a "dirty kaffir" it would be racist speech both prior and after 1994. According to the "new" definition of racism this would not be a racist utterance post 1994.

Of course, you can argue that South Africa is a special case but if you need to qualify and contextualise a definition it's probably not much of a definition.


I think, as per your earlier post about Obama, you're still taking much too narrow a view of power and privilege. While concentration of political power in South Africa has shifted away from the country's white minority, black South Africans are still considerably more likely to live in poverty:

https://qz.com/africa/1061461/post-apartheid-south-africa-is-failing-the-very-people-it-liberated/

While the wealthiest individuals still come from the country's white minority:

https://businesstech.co.za/news/wealth/289542/south-african-billionaire-defends-white-wealth/

This is all to be expected in a country that had an institutionalised race-based power differential at its heart until a generation ago: history lingers, and the fallout of the past doesn't simply vanish overnight. Nonetheless, it's true that South Africa's demographics and post-Apartheid political realignment make it a very different case to the US or Australia, and that the notion of who is privileged and who is disadvantaged may be rather more complicated and situational there. Most likely, the answer to your hypothetical is that racist slurs directed at black South Africans retain a capacity to harm, but that racism against white South Africans has potentially become more of a serious concern than it once was.

By the way, I should also note that there's nothing new about this understanding of racism; it's been discussed nearly since the term first entered common usage. To make the point more generally, consider the very first statement in Article 1 of the 1965 UN convention on the elimination of racial discrimination:

https://www.ohchr.org/EN/ProfessionalInterest/Pages/CERD.aspx

Quote:
In this Convention, the term "racial discrimination" shall mean any distinction, exclusion, restriction or preference based on race, colour, descent, or national or ethnic origin which has the purpose or effect of nullifying or impairing the recognition, enjoyment or exercise, on an equal footing, of human rights and fundamental freedoms in the political, economic, social, cultural or any other field of public life.


If racism were then simply a matter of what you call the "old/real" definition, the sentence above could have comfortably ended before the bolded section began. But note what that section indicates: that it was not just an abstract concept of racial discrimination that the UN was concerned with, but rather one that had the capacity to cause significant harm to a person. That requires context, and I think the implication is clear there that the context being described in this document was one of inequality.

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stui magpie Gemini

Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.


Joined: 03 May 2005
Location: In flagrante delicto

PostPosted: Mon Jul 29, 2019 7:19 pm
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K wrote:
Man charged after throwing yoghurt at ABC's Leigh Sales

https://www.smh.com.au/national/man-charged-after-throwing-yogurt-at-abc-s-leigh-sales-20190728-p52bjy.html

[I'd say if I were Leigh the main worry would be the flying container. If someone standing next to me poured the yoghurt on me, more like Egg Boy or Egg Woman, it wouldn't scare me.]


I'm glad the idiot got charged. There's plenty of ways to protest without throwing objects at public figures you don't like

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David Libra

I dare you to try


Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda

PostPosted: Tue Jul 30, 2019 8:55 am
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On the contrary, I think I’m ready to embrace this brave new world of political discourse in this country!

https://youtu.be/aqmzjArJp4U

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Skids Cancer

Quitting drinking will be one of the best choices you make in your life.


Joined: 11 Sep 2007
Location: Joined 3/6/02 . Member #175

PostPosted: Tue Jul 30, 2019 10:02 am
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So... is this, or isn't this racist behaviour on our infamous Armadale train line....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h_oK_bgs164

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZEMiUEtpWd4

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=trlhv0GgZ7Y

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David Libra

I dare you to try


Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda

PostPosted: Tue Jul 30, 2019 11:07 am
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Yes, I feel very oppressed by mentally ill homeless people on public transport. Good thing some hero has recorded these vulnerable individuals for our entertainment.
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watt price tully Scorpio



Joined: 15 May 2007


PostPosted: Tue Jul 30, 2019 5:40 pm
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David wrote:
Yes, I feel very oppressed by mentally ill homeless people on public transport. Good thing some hero has recorded these vulnerable individuals for our entertainment.


Yes a real hero. Some other hero might think it's a good idea to perpetuate the recording of mentally ill and vulnerable individuals for our entertainment. Rolling Eyes

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watt price tully Scorpio



Joined: 15 May 2007


PostPosted: Tue Jul 30, 2019 5:42 pm
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stui magpie wrote:
K wrote:
Man charged after throwing yoghurt at ABC's Leigh Sales

https://www.smh.com.au/national/man-charged-after-throwing-yogurt-at-abc-s-leigh-sales-20190728-p52bjy.html

[I'd say if I were Leigh the main worry would be the flying container. If someone standing next to me poured the yoghurt on me, more like Egg Boy or Egg Woman, it wouldn't scare me.]


I'm glad the idiot got charged. There's plenty of ways to protest without throwing objects at public figures you don't like


I don't know, the charge should relate to the type of yoghurt being thrown. Sugar laden (not Sugar bin laden) yoghurt might need to incur a greater penalty than non-sugar yoghurts.

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David Libra

I dare you to try


Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda

PostPosted: Tue Jul 30, 2019 6:23 pm
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Throwing sugar-laden yoghurt? It’s just not natural. Wink
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KenH Gemini



Joined: 24 Jan 2010


PostPosted: Tue Jul 30, 2019 7:33 pm
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watt price tully wrote:
David wrote:
Yes, I feel very oppressed by mentally ill homeless people on public transport. Good thing some hero has recorded these vulnerable individuals for our entertainment.


Yes a real hero. Some other hero might think it's a good idea to perpetuate the recording of mentally ill and vulnerable individuals for our entertainment. Rolling Eyes


Sounds like the Footy Show, Street Talk with Sam Newman!

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stui magpie Gemini

Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.


Joined: 03 May 2005
Location: In flagrante delicto

PostPosted: Tue Jul 30, 2019 7:57 pm
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David wrote:
On the contrary, I think I’m ready to embrace this brave new world of political discourse in this country!

https://youtu.be/aqmzjArJp4U


Nah, this one was better. The Great Race, best Pie fight ever

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_eP6bkialg8

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Pies4shaw Leo

pies4shaw


Joined: 08 Oct 2007


PostPosted: Fri Aug 09, 2019 3:36 pm
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https://blog.cloudflare.com/terminating-service-for-8chan/

Terminating Service for 8Chan
05 Aug 2019 by Matthew Prince.

The mass shootings in El Paso, Texas and Dayton, Ohio are horrific tragedies. In the case of the El Paso shooting, the suspected terrorist gunman appears to have been inspired by the forum website known as 8chan. Based on evidence we've seen, it appears that he posted a screed to the site immediately before beginning his terrifying attack on the El Paso Walmart killing 20 people.

Unfortunately, this is not an isolated incident. Nearly the same thing happened on 8chan before the terror attack in Christchurch, New Zealand. The El Paso shooter specifically referenced the Christchurch incident and appears to have been inspired by the largely unmoderated discussions on 8chan which glorified the previous massacre. In a separate tragedy, the suspected killer in the Poway, California synagogue shooting also posted a hate-filled “open letter” on 8chan. 8chan has repeatedly proven itself to be a cesspool of hate.

8chan is among the more than 19 million Internet properties that use Cloudflare's service. We just sent notice that we are terminating 8chan as a customer effective at midnight tonight Pacific Time. The rationale is simple: they have proven themselves to be lawless and that lawlessness has caused multiple tragic deaths. Even if 8chan may not have violated the letter of the law in refusing to moderate their hate-filled community, they have created an environment that revels in violating its spirit.

We do not take this decision lightly. Cloudflare is a network provider. In pursuit of our goal of helping build a better internet, we’ve considered it important to provide our security services broadly to make sure as many users as possible are secure, and thereby making cyberattacks less attractive — regardless of the content of those websites. Many of our customers run platforms of their own on top of our network. If our policies are more conservative than theirs it effectively undercuts their ability to run their services and set their own policies. We reluctantly tolerate content that we find reprehensible, but we draw the line at platforms that have demonstrated they directly inspire tragic events and are lawless by design. 8chan has crossed that line. It will therefore no longer be allowed to use our services.

What Will Happen Next
Unfortunately, we have seen this situation before and so we have a good sense of what will play out. Almost exactly two years ago we made the determination to kick another disgusting site off Cloudflare's network: the Daily Stormer. That caused a brief interruption in the site's operations but they quickly came back online using a Cloudflare competitor. That competitor at the time promoted as a feature the fact that they didn't respond to legal process. Today, the Daily Stormer is still available and still disgusting. They have bragged that they have more readers than ever. They are no longer Cloudflare's problem, but they remain the Internet's problem.

I have little doubt we'll see the same happen with 8chan. While removing 8chan from our network takes heat off of us, it does nothing to address why hateful sites fester online. It does nothing to address why mass shootings occur. It does nothing to address why portions of the population feel so disenchanted they turn to hate. In taking this action we've solved our own problem, but we haven't solved the Internet's.

In the two years since the Daily Stormer what we have done to try and solve the Internet’s deeper problem is engage with law enforcement and civil society organizations to try and find solutions. Among other things, that resulted in us cooperating around monitoring potential hate sites on our network and notifying law enforcement when there was content that contained an indication of potential violence. We will continue to work within the legal process to share information when we can to hopefully prevent horrific acts of violence. We believe this is our responsibility and, given Cloudflare's scale and reach, we are hopeful we will continue to make progress toward solving the deeper problem.

Rule of Law
We continue to feel incredibly uncomfortable about playing the role of content arbiter and do not plan to exercise it often. Some have wrongly speculated this is due to some conception of the United States' First Amendment. That is incorrect. First, we are a private company and not bound by the First Amendment. Second, the vast majority of our customers, and more than 50% of our revenue, comes from outside the United States where the First Amendment and similarly libertarian freedom of speech protections do not apply. The only relevance of the First Amendment in this case and others is that it allows us to choose who we do and do not do business with; it does not obligate us to do business with everyone.

Instead our concern has centered around another much more universal idea: the Rule of Law. The Rule of Law requires policies be transparent and consistent. While it has been articulated as a framework for how governments ensure their legitimacy, we have used it as a touchstone when we think about our own policies.

We have been successful because we have a very effective technological solution that provides security, performance, and reliability in an affordable and easy-to-use way. As a result of that, a huge portion of the Internet now sits behind our network. 10% of the top million, 17% of the top 100,000, and 19% of the top 10,000 Internet properties use us today. 10% of the Fortune 1,000 are paying Cloudflare customers.

Cloudflare is not a government. While we've been successful as a company, that does not give us the political legitimacy to make determinations on what content is good and bad. Nor should it. Questions around content are real societal issues that need politically legitimate solutions. We will continue to engage with lawmakers around the world as they set the boundaries of what is acceptable in their countries through due process of law. And we will comply with those boundaries when and where they are set.

Europe, for example, has taken a lead in this area. As we've seen governments there attempt to address hate and terror content online, there is recognition that different obligations should be placed on companies that organize and promote content — like Facebook and YouTube — rather than those that are mere conduits for that content. Conduits, like Cloudflare, are not visible to users and therefore cannot be transparent and consistent about their policies.

The unresolved question is how should the law deal with platforms that ignore or actively thwart the Rule of Law? That's closer to the situation we have seen with the Daily Stormer and 8chan. They are lawless platforms. In cases like these, where platforms have been designed to be lawless and unmoderated, and where the platforms have demonstrated their ability to cause real harm, the law may need additional remedies. We and other technology companies need to work with policy makers in order to help them understand the problem and define these remedies. And, in some cases, it may mean moving enforcement mechanisms further down the technical stack.

Our Obligation
Cloudflare's mission is to help build a better Internet. At some level firing 8chan as a customer is easy. They are uniquely lawless and that lawlessness has contributed to multiple horrific tragedies. Enough is enough.

What's hard is defining the policy that we can enforce transparently and consistently going forward. We, and other technology companies like us that enable the great parts of the Internet, have an obligation to help propose solutions to deal with the parts we're not proud of. That's our obligation and we're committed to it.

Unfortunately the action we take today won’t fix hate online. It will almost certainly not even remove 8chan from the Internet. But it is the right thing to do. Hate online is a real issue. Here are some organizations that have active work to help address it:

Anti-Defamation League
Gen Next Foundation
Perspective API
7 Cups

Our whole Cloudflare team’s thoughts are with the families grieving in El Paso, Texas and Dayton, Ohio this evening.
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Wokko Pisces

Come and take it.


Joined: 04 Oct 2005


PostPosted: Fri Aug 09, 2019 5:18 pm
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Oh my god! The horror of unmoderated discussion. Rolling Eyes

Might as well blame the USPS for the Unabomber's manifesto (A real Right wing terrorist btw, accuracy of language matters), it's ridiculous crap being used to silence free speech.

After 8ch they'll got for 4 chan (RIP Cat memes) and then controversial Sub-Reddits or websites the liberal left in Silicon Valley don't like. Expecting corporations to be moral arbiters? What could possibly go wrong.
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Wokko Pisces

Come and take it.


Joined: 04 Oct 2005


PostPosted: Fri Aug 09, 2019 5:18 pm
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*DP* (this forum software is getting jankier by the month, seriously needs an upgrade).
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watt price tully Scorpio



Joined: 15 May 2007


PostPosted: Sat Aug 10, 2019 11:49 am
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More right wing terrorism:

Right white supremacist males and right wing islamofascists using each-others techniques to spread more hate

https://www.theage.com.au/politics/federal/extremists-feed-off-each-other-to-recruit-and-spread-their-propaganda-20190809-p52fmw.html

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Pies4shaw Leo

pies4shaw


Joined: 08 Oct 2007


PostPosted: Tue Nov 05, 2019 9:59 am
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https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2019/nov/04/fbi-colorado-synagogue-bomb-plot

Nothing quite like buying explosives from the FBI to put a downer on a would-be pogrom.
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