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Alleged Australian war crimes in Afghanistan investigated

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David Libra

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Joined: 27 Jul 2003
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 20, 2020 9:09 pm
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Anyone who committed a murder of an unarmed civilian or prisoner during war should be treated like any murderer would be here, imo (something like 10–20 years prison is the base minimum). The life they took is no less human or valuable than anyone here.
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watt price tully Scorpio



Joined: 15 May 2007


PostPosted: Fri Nov 20, 2020 9:28 pm
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David wrote:
Anyone who committed a murder of an unarmed civilian or prisoner during war should be treated like any murderer would be here, imo (something like 10–20 years prison is the base minimum). The life they took is no less human or valuable than anyone here.


The alleged murderers should be tried and if found guilty of murder then jailed. Simple.

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think positive Libra

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 20, 2020 11:00 pm
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Who is the murderer? The officer or the poor sap who did as he was told?

I can’t imagine belong in that situation, im glad its not something I will ever have to contemplate.

It’s so so easy to judge from afar.

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David Libra

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 20, 2020 11:07 pm
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They both bear responsibility. Even the subordinate in that situation had the freedom to say no. What’s the worst that would have happened to him if he had?

I’m all for sympathy for killers but let’s not forget the real victims here.

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think positive Libra

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 20, 2020 11:28 pm
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David wrote:
They both bear responsibility. Even the subordinate in that situation had the freedom to say no. What’s the worst that would have happened to him if he had?

I’m all for sympathy for killers but let’s not forget the real victims here.


It’s called treason, or insubordination, you get shot for it. I’m not justifying their actions at all, but thankfully, I never walked in their shoes. And never had to make that choice.

And by the way, I have no sympathy for your every day garden variety killers ar all.

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watt price tully Scorpio



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PostPosted: Mon Nov 23, 2020 8:36 am
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Guy Rundle as is often the case has explained this well framing the murders as an inherent part of the Australian male psyche and as part of the colonialist mentality:

https://www.crikey.com.au/2020/11/20/brereton-war-crimes-report/?at=&utm_campaign=SundayRead&utm_medium=email&utm_source=newsletter

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Tannin Capricorn

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Joined: 06 Aug 2006
Location: Huon Valley Tasmania

PostPosted: Mon Nov 23, 2020 8:51 am
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think positive wrote:
David wrote:
They both bear responsibility. Even the subordinate in that situation had the freedom to say no. What’s the worst that would have happened to him if he had?

I’m all for sympathy for killers but let’s not forget the real victims here.


It’s called treason, or insubordination, you get shot for it. I’m not justifying their actions at all, but thankfully, I never walked in their shoes. And never had to make that choice.

And by the way, I have no sympathy for your every day garden variety killers ar all.


This has been tested in law many times, notably at the Nuremberg trials after the fall of Nazi Germany. The long and the short of it is that "just following orders" is not a valid defence. Plenty of concentration camp guards were hanged for "just following orders" - and rightly so.

Regardless of the requirement to follow orders, in any army, you have an overriding responsibility to stay within the rules of war. (And yes, that puts individual soldiers in some very difficult situations.)

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David Libra

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 23, 2020 9:58 am
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And not that I'm trying to assert any moral hierarchy here, but you could actually be shot for refusing to follow orders in Nazi Germany. What's the worst that could happen to an SAS member in Afghanistan, getting a wedgie at the next hazing session? The idea that an Australian soldier would be executed in this day and age for any reason (let alone for refusing to kill an unarmed civilian) is nuts. Indeed, it's worth noting that the most famous court martialing of an Australian soldier – Breaker Morant – was over 100 years ago, and it was actually for doing the same thing that these soldiers did.
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Last edited by David on Mon Nov 23, 2020 10:04 am; edited 1 time in total
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Lazza 



Joined: 04 Feb 2003
Location: Bendigo, Victoria, Australia

PostPosted: Mon Nov 23, 2020 9:59 am
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It is all about choice. Sometimes the choice is between the devil or the deep blue sea but it is still a choice. And just like TP, I would never like to find myself in such a daunting position.
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watt price tully Scorpio



Joined: 15 May 2007


PostPosted: Mon Nov 23, 2020 12:18 pm
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In WW2 it wasn’t always as neat as following orders, see SS etc there was active and willing participation: that is well documented.

In Afghanistan it also wasn’t orders as well it was the action being allowed to occur with the tacit approval of those immediately higher up in the field.

The ABC needs to be congratulated on such brave reporting all those years ago and especially the brave whistleblowers.

Remember the Australian Federal Police (doing yet another political hatchet job on the opposition) through their staged intimidatory behaviours such as taking of computers in front of the alerted media.

The politicisation of the AFP under this mongrel of a Liberal government is a disgrace. The Army and the Libs have been trying to bury this for years.

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Tannin Capricorn

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 23, 2020 12:56 pm
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Agree with all of that, WPT. And Lazza. And David too. (Note that I was not trying to oversimplfy or minimise, simply clarify international law.
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David Libra

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 23, 2020 1:59 pm
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watt price tully wrote:
The ABC needs to be congratulated on such brave reporting all those years ago and especially the brave whistleblowers.

Remember the Australian Federal Police (doing yet another political hatchet job on the opposition) through their staged intimidatory behaviours such as taking of computers in front of the alerted media.

The politicisation of the AFP under this mongrel of a Liberal government is a disgrace. The Army and the Libs have been trying to bury this for years.


Totally agree. That's why this line being pushed now that higher-ups weren't complicit in the cover-up is implausible – what's a cover-up if not what the government tried to do to the ABC?

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watt price tully Scorpio



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PostPosted: Tue Nov 24, 2020 11:18 am
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Geoffrey Robertson on the legal and moral issues from this as well as the cowardly US administration especially Trump and Nixon in the way they handled similar issues:

https://www.theage.com.au/national/justice-must-be-served-to-atone-for-war-crimes-20201123-p56h1a.html

Again congratulations to the brave whistleblowers. Congratulations to the journalists from the ABC and The Age. What no Murdoch press Shocked

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think positive Libra

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 24, 2020 4:13 pm
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And congratulations to the 25,975 Australian soldiers who did the right thing and the 41 who made the ultimate sacrifice. Don’t cast them all with the same shadow
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Culprit Cancer



Joined: 06 Feb 2003
Location: Port Melbourne

PostPosted: Tue Nov 24, 2020 4:17 pm
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There's no need for an further investigations or trial. Many have already found the alleged perpetrators guilty and ready to hang them. Trial by media.

Here's a list of the men that died for our country in that shithole. Not that you would give a toss.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Australian_Defence_Force_casualties_in_Afghanistan

7 of those were killed by a member of the afghan National Army. One of those responsible is walking or has walked free. Amazing but not surprising none of you are up in arms about that. None of you hangman have ever served let alone been under fire in any hostile act. None of you have ever witnessed your mate being shot dead by a so called friendly. Yet you sit in comfort and condemn their actions like you were there next to them.
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