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think positive 
Side By Side
Joined: 30 Jun 2005
Location: somewhere
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i agree with you totally. what i dont like is a one sided argument with a broad title that shames the armed services like this. like i said so $�$%^%%$ easy to judge when you have not been in their shoes, who knows what happened before this incident, maybe nothing, or maybe he saw his best mate shot by a civilian with a gun, or blown apart by a land mine laid by a woman in a burka. blow the whistle by all means but play the whole tune.
as for being there, all war is a waste of human life, and i cant believe man as a whole has not figured this out yet! greed, pure greed.
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David
I dare you to try
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda
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| think positive wrote: | | so change the title to war Crime, drop the S. the video shows one incident |
This is an entirely different time period and killing from the one that I posted about earlier in the thread, TP. There has been far more than one incident like this involving Australian soldiers – though I understand this may come as a surprise to many.
| Wokko wrote: | Being a bit of a student of military history I'd be more surprised if this didn't happen. Not making any excuses for it, but when you take young men and train them to be killers who don't hesitate you're going to get psychopaths and the traumatized in near constant stress and horror.
TBH we shouldn't be there in the first place, it was a war with no objective but to play with new toys in a sandbox. Those who ordered our troops there deserve to be in jail even more than the murderer (and from all the evidence that's what the soldier is, and he's not alone, he's just the only one on camera so far). |
Totally agree, Wokko.
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think positive
Side By Side
Joined: 30 Jun 2005
Location: somewhere
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| David wrote: | | think positive wrote: | | so change the title to war Crime, drop the S. the video shows one incident |
This is an entirely different time period and killing from the one that I posted about earlier in the thread, TP. There has been far more than one incident like this involving Australian soldiers – though I understand this may come as a surprise to many.
| Wokko wrote: | Being a bit of a student of military history I'd be more surprised if this didn't happen. Not making any excuses for it, but when you take young men and train them to be killers who don't hesitate you're going to get psychopaths and the traumatized in near constant stress and horror.
TBH we shouldn't be there in the first place, it was a war with no objective but to play with new toys in a sandbox. Those who ordered our troops there deserve to be in jail even more than the murderer (and from all the evidence that's what the soldier is, and he's not alone, he's just the only one on camera so far). |
Totally agree, Wokko. |
point, and sarcasm, noted
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You cant fix stupid, turns out you cant quarantine it either! |
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stui magpie 
Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.
Joined: 03 May 2005
Location: In flagrante delicto
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| Wokko wrote: | | Being a bit of a student of military history I'd be more surprised if this didn't happen. Not making any excuses for it, but when you take young men and train them to be killers who don't hesitate you're going to get psychopaths and the traumatized in near constant stress and horror. . |
I'd agree with that. They try to screen out those who have undesirable social or personality traits, recruit instead those more straight up, then train them to behave like the ones they screen out.
It likely did happen but I still have questions. One imbecile on line I saw said it was worse than what the Nazis did. Really? I don't think it compares to The Holocaust, and have a look at how the Japanese treated prisoners of war for a low bar.
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Every dead body on Mt Everest was once a highly motivated person, so maybe just calm the **** down. |
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think positive
Side By Side
Joined: 30 Jun 2005
Location: somewhere
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| stui magpie wrote: | | Wokko wrote: | | Being a bit of a student of military history I'd be more surprised if this didn't happen. Not making any excuses for it, but when you take young men and train them to be killers who don't hesitate you're going to get psychopaths and the traumatized in near constant stress and horror. . |
I'd agree with that. They try to screen out those who have undesirable social or personality traits, recruit instead those more straight up, then train them to behave like the ones they screen out.
It likely did happen but I still have questions. One imbecile on line I saw said it was worse than what the Nazis did. Really? I don't think it compares to The Holocaust, and have a look at how the Japanese treated prisoners of war for a low bar. |
this was my point earlier
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You cant fix stupid, turns out you cant quarantine it either! |
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Morrigu 
Joined: 11 Aug 2001
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| I watched 4 corners - no doubt in my mind I’m afraid. And they were randomly shooting and killing dogs many on chains. |
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think positive
Side By Side
Joined: 30 Jun 2005
Location: somewhere
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| Morrigu wrote: | | I watched 4 corners - no doubt in my mind I’m afraid. And they were randomly shooting and killing dogs many on chains. |
ill take a look at it online, cheers,
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You cant fix stupid, turns out you cant quarantine it either! |
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watt price tully 
Joined: 15 May 2007
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| stui magpie wrote: | | David wrote: | | stui magpie wrote: | ^
If that's the case, then great. I still have questions.
Did this whistleblower testify to the recent inquiry?
Where did that footage come from and was that provided to the inquiry?
If the answers are no, then why?
Just because detail pops up that agrees with your world view doesn't make it true. |
I mean, the footage is literally there in the article. Are you suggesting it could have been faked? Otherwise, I do generally trust Four Corners' journalistic integrity, yes. |
I saw the footage. I'd expect that the footage would have been downloaded from the camera after the mission. The soldier wearing the camera wouldn't necessarily have access to it and I assume he wasn't the whistle blower as every bloke in the SAS would know who is is by the dogs name.
So once video has been downloaded, where did it go? How did the whistleblower get it? Why release it now? Was it manipulated before the ABC got it? Does it actually show the killing shots? (the one online goes black at that point)
If there's a current affairs program I'd trust to not make up sensationalist crap, it would be 4 corners, they do have integrity. I just have questions.
| watt price tully wrote: |
You should try and get a TV with the ABC on it   |
I do, I usually watch the ABC news at 10pm before going to sleep. Have you considered getting a TV that has more channels than just the ABC?
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I do, it has two channels : SBS as well
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“I even went as far as becoming a Southern Baptist until I realised they didn’t keep ‘em under long enough” Kinky Friedman |
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Pies4shaw 
pies4shaw
Joined: 08 Oct 2007
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| ^ I had SBS removed from mine when they stopped reporting agricultural production figures for the USSR. |
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watt price tully
Joined: 15 May 2007
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| Pies4shaw wrote: | | ^ I had SBS removed from mine when they stopped reporting agricultural production figures for the USSR. |
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=AkNZ65Fif4k
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“I even went as far as becoming a Southern Baptist until I realised they didn’t keep ‘em under long enough” Kinky Friedman |
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David
I dare you to try
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda
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A lot of this previously suppressed information finally came out today:
https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2020/nov/19/australian-special-forces-involved-in-of-39-afghan-civilians-war-crimes-report-alleges
| Quote: | Australian special forces were allegedly involved in the murder of 39 Afghan civilians, in some cases executing prisoners to “blood” junior soldiers before inventing cover stories and planting weapons on corpses, a major report has found.
For more than four years, the Maj Gen Justice Paul Brereton has investigated allegations that a small group within the elite Special Air Services and commandos regiments killed and brutalised Afghan civilians, in some cases allegedly slitting throats, gloating about their actions, keeping kill counts, and photographing bodies with planted phones and weapons to justify their actions.
The findings of Brereton’s report, released on Thursday, are confronting and damning.
Brereton describes the special forces’ actions as “disgraceful and a profound betrayal” of the Australian Defence Force.
The report found:
• Special forces were responsible for dozens of unlawful killings, the vast majority of which involved prisoners, and were deliberately covered up.
• Thirty-nine Afghans were unlawfully killed in 23 incidents, either by special forces or at the instruction of special forces.
• None of the killings took place in the heat of battle, and they all occurred in circumstances which, if accepted by a jury, would constitute the war crime of murder.
• All the victims were either non-combatants or were no longer combatants.
• A total of 25 perpetrators have been identified either as principals or accessories. Some are still serving in the ADF.
• In all cases, the report finds it “was or should have been plain that the person killed was a non-combatant”. The vast majority of victims had been captured and were under control, giving them the protection under international law.
Some of the incidents described in the report are deeply troubling. Evidence suggests junior soldiers were instructed by their superiors to execute prisoners in cold blood as part of a “blooding” process to give them their first kill.
“Typically, the patrol commander would take a person under control and the junior member … would then be directed to kill the person under control,” the report found. “‘Throwdowns’ would be placed with the body and a ‘cover story’ was created for the purposes of operational reporting and to deflect scrutiny.”
[…]
The inquiry was triggered by work by military sociologist Samantha Crompvoets, who was tasked with examining special forces culture and began to hear disturbing allegations of war crimes.
One soldier told her: “Guys just had this blood lust. Psychos. Absolute psychos. And we bred them.”
She heard one alleged incident in which two 14-year-old boys were stopped by SAS, who decided they might be Taliban sympathisers. Their throats were slit.
“The rest of the troop then had to ‘clean up the mess’ by finding others to help dispose of the bodies,” Crompvoets reported. “In the end, the bodies were bagged and thrown in a nearby river.” |
Anyone who still holds any romanticised notions of war should read this.
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think positive
Side By Side
Joined: 30 Jun 2005
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I don’t think anyone romanticises war, they may just have a different opinion than you.
Man the workings of a brain which sees life like that quoted above. Sad. Certainly need to find out where that mentality comes from. Imagine living life seeing people like that, feeling like that. Is it war that makes psychopaths or vis versa. Or both.
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You cant fix stupid, turns out you cant quarantine it either! |
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David
I dare you to try
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda
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I guess there's a spectrum of romanticisation from dulce et decorum est pro patria mori to garden-variety Herald Sun stuff, but the kind I'm thinking of is the fantasy in which our troops (or those of our allies) go into a troubled region, bring peace and civilisation and act with rigorous professionalism. It's the underlying presumption of a lot of modern warfare: the worry is that the war might not go to plan, that there might be accidental civilian casualties or that our soldiers might get killed, but hardly anyone talks about what our soldiers might do. It's a curious oversight, but one that's hardly justifiable given the history of My Lai, Abu Ghraib, the Collateral Murder video and the countless other examples of war crimes by "our" side. We should know by now that war is a Stanford Prison experiment writ large.
While I'm sure some – and perhaps even the majority of – Australian soldiers act in a morally upstanding manner, the impression one gets from this and previous revelations about Afghanistan (who can forget the Nazi flag incident, as just one random case in point) makes a lot of them sound like cowboys blowing off steam, enjoying getting to play with guns and ruthlessly getting off on the power they wield. As to whether war makes them like this, it's undeniable that military training desensitises and encourages the dehumanisation of others. But you also have to wonder what makes a person want to join the army to begin with. I'm sure there are a lot of bad motivations out there, to say the least.
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stui magpie
Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.
Joined: 03 May 2005
Location: In flagrante delicto
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I haven't read the article, the allegations I understand are directed at SAS troops.
These are the ones they send in to the worst situations to kill people. They aren't there to keep peace or build schools, that's the military equivalent of a SWAT team. We train them to kill people, laud them for being the best of the best (and they are) then wonder why some have difficulties with boundaries.
It would be interesting to see how many returned soldiers had suicided compared to civilian deaths they caused.
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Every dead body on Mt Everest was once a highly motivated person, so maybe just calm the **** down. |
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think positive
Side By Side
Joined: 30 Jun 2005
Location: somewhere
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| stui magpie wrote: | I haven't read the article, the allegations I understand are directed at SAS troops.
These are the ones they send in to the worst situations to kill people. They aren't there to keep peace or build schools, that's the military equivalent of a SWAT team. We train them to kill people, laud them for being the best of the best (and they are) then wonder why some have difficulties with boundaries.
It would be interesting to see how many returned soldiers had suicided compared to civilian deaths they caused. |
as much as hes a far out fictional character John Rambo says this at the end of the first First Blood. Apparently the way he is treated was not too far off reality for many returned servicemen from Vietnam. The speech at the end says all this and more. Pretty much like the poor guard dog trained to kill, and then being killed itself for being too aggressive. Those who gave the orders should stand trial, the soldier obeying the order should receive treatment.
its terrible, brutal, and not lawful, but dont pretend the enemy didnt do this and worse. no it doesnt make it right, but each case should be looked at seperately, do not tar all service personnel with the same brush.
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You cant fix stupid, turns out you cant quarantine it either! |
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