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pietillidie
Joined: 07 Jan 2005
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Sicks Bux 
Hal 2003-2019
Joined: 30 Jun 2020
Location: Me Island Ome
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^Well if it's any consolation the Democrats are working hard to get the Green Party kicked off ballots in a bid to stop them from syphoning off "their" votes.
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The beatings will continue until moral improves. |
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David 
I dare you to try
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda
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Yeah, I read that and can't help but feel that we're long past the point of such things being normalised on both sides. The fact that Republicans are particularly trying to deter African-Americans from voting through advertising is ugly, but in a highly technologically sophisticated campaign for an election with voluntary voting, the question of who does and doesn't vote isn't going to be left to chance, and I think we'd be very naive if we thought the Democratic Party is above such obstructive tactics. While not quite the same thing, I agree with SB that trying to get third parties off the ballot is in its own right unconscionable and undemocratic.
In the realm of anti-democratic tampering, I'd say it's still a step below active voter suppression (e.g. blocking felons from voting), something that Republicans have of course been masters of for decades. Talking down the other side in an effort to stop people from voting for them – without presenting a case of your own – is one thing; actively stopping them from exercising their right to vote is another. I expect we'll be seeing a lot of the latter this time around.
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pietillidie
Joined: 07 Jan 2005
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^It's part and parcel of the campaign of active voter suppression. Its importance is that Trump hides behind the GOP, and the GOP hides behind Trump; but no, they coordinated to perfection on voter suppression alright.
Do you have any evidence of active efforts to deter voting by generating targeted systemic disbelief and cynicism in the political system in a marginalised group on the other side? Is it anything close to the whole end-to-end Trump/GOP suppression campaign?
And is this what you're referring to in regard to the Dems/Greens?
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.foxnews.com/politics/dems-green-party-montana-senate-ballot
https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2020/09/18/penn-s18.html
I'm not naïve enough to say a party wouldn't do it, or individuals wouldn't do it, especially now it's known to be so effective, but you do need to evidence it. Otherwise, it looks as if you're begging the evidence to maintain equivalence which is the very strategy used in the deterrence campaign itself, ironically.
Even Chomsky refuses to cross that line because he knows that once the parameters of the game have been set there are still meaningful differences, and generating universal cynicism is a well-known and effective form of propaganda used to undermine democracy. On the basis of tactics, Chomsky would oppose idiotic Greens installing wreckers like Trump; he's made this clear. Instead, he would look for a fair fix outside the parameters of the game to change the two-party system, not blindly hand government to a deranged psychopath in fundamentalist leftist protest.
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Help Nick's: http://www.magpies.net/nick/bb/fundraising.htm
Last edited by pietillidie on Tue Sep 29, 2020 6:28 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Sicks Bux
Hal 2003-2019
Joined: 30 Jun 2020
Location: Me Island Ome
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The onus is on the Democrats to earn the support of progressive voters with policies that appeal to them.
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The beatings will continue until moral improves. |
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pietillidie
Joined: 07 Jan 2005
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^So, in spite you would rather a deranged narcissist who is accelerating environmental destruction be handed the nuclear codes should Dems find those views politically untenable?
If so, that's where you and Chomsky part ways, and I'm well with him on needing to distinguish between strategy and tactics. Yes, the two-party system is a horror, but it's a cause for post-election.
You might want to consider my approach. I believe I own the centre by virtue of human inheritance. It's the centre of where we're at; I didn't create it, I didn't ask for it, but there it is anyway and I've even helped create it by virtue of my existence.
Disgruntled outsiders and angry fist-wavers - some more justified and sane than others - don't get to force me either side of that human inheritance. Neither do elites and wannabe elites, who imagine they're the centre of all humanity. Working from the centre I can then take independent views left or right as I believe are better for the whole, without buying into the fundamentalist nonsense that purity exists only on the margins. Nope, sorry; the centre is mine, and I'm not handing it over to the most destructive political option on the grounds of false equivalency in some bruised emotional reaction that can't see the forest for the trees.
The centre is an epiphenomenon; it's not something anyone creates but is merely 'there'. Fighting it is tilting at windmills and does no good for either the self or society.
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In the end the rain comes down, washes clean the streets of a blue sky town.
Help Nick's: http://www.magpies.net/nick/bb/fundraising.htm |
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watt price tully 
Joined: 15 May 2007
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If they don’t want Trump in people need to vote despite the gerrymandering, and the hurdles / blocks against blacks and other minorities in some states.
If I were running the campaign for the Democrats I’d just focus on the Coronavirus and his tax avoidance; the latter by saying ordinary workers paid more tax than he did. Keep it simple, repeat the message and stay on message. Make him the focus and how badly he has done. No more, no less.
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“I even went as far as becoming a Southern Baptist until I realised they didn’t keep ‘em under long enough” Kinky Friedman |
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Sicks Bux
Hal 2003-2019
Joined: 30 Jun 2020
Location: Me Island Ome
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Again. The onus is on the Democrats to earn the votes. If the Democrats fail to entice the progressive part of the base out in sufficient numbers to win, because their policies are too shitty, then they're the ones who have "handed the nuclear codes to the deranged narcissist".
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The beatings will continue until moral improves. |
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David
I dare you to try
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda
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| pietillidie wrote: | | Even Chomsky refuses to cross that line because he knows that once the parameters of the game have been set there are still meaningful differences, and generating universal cynicism is a well-known and effective form of propaganda used to undermine democracy. On the basis of tactics, Chomsky would oppose idiotic Greens installing wreckers like Trump; he's made this clear. Instead, he would look for a fair fix outside the parameters of the game to change the two-party system, not blindly hand government to a deranged psychopath in fundamentalist leftist protest. |
For what it's worth, I also think voting for the US Greens is a pretty futile endeavour and that the party as a whole seems to have no long-term strategy other than turning up once every four years and attracting a protest vote. But that's a very different matter to the question of whether a third party should have a right to run or people should have the right to vote for them, and I found the story of them being removed from the ballot in Montana – in the first instance, by Democratic apparatchiks misusing their position as electoral officials to advance partisan goals – extremely disturbing. Knowing the level of bastardry that our ALP routinely sink to in order to discredit and weaken our own Green Party, I have no interest in appeasing or excusing that kind of behaviour by the even more venal Democrats, and think that anyone who does so – i.e. serving as an apologist for something that they know is wrong and undemocratic – in order to avoid giving the Republicans a free kick is acting unconscionably.
Here are a couple of articles about Democratic Party voter suppression tactics, by the way. Considerably less extensive than Republican efforts, but nothing to sneeze at:
https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/how-democrats-suppress-the-vote/
https://edition.cnn.com/2018/07/19/opinions/democrats-need-reform-new-york-primary-weaver/index.html
Otherwise, like many on the left, I'm tired of hearing about each and every US presidential election being an existential crisis moment with the Democrats being the only force standing in the way of a Boschian hellscape (the question of quite where this crisis comes from, or why it seems to get worse every time, is left unanswered). It's not even that that formulation is necessarily wrong; Republicans do invariably cause significant damage whenever they get in, and will certainly do so this time around if Trump gets another four years of power. But it's still cynical emotional blackmail, blackmail designed to stamp out progressive criticism and maintain the party's own power. There comes a time when people have to call out the Democrats for being active enablers of that rightward shift, and of being a unique threat to equality, progress and justice – and that time is decidedly not after the election when nobody cares and no leverage can be wielded. (On that note, I still think it was a significant error of judgement for Sanders to drop out so early in the primary process, and believe he and others on the left should have withheld any endorsement until key demands were met.)
Despite all of this, if I were American, I would most likely vote for Biden and – reluctantly, not enthusiastically – perhaps even encourage others to do the same. But I would do so without much optimism, and in the knowledge that his presidency is likely to be little more than a band-aid (if that!) over the many societal dysfunctions that helped create the Trump presidency and that he offers no promise or plan to resolve. And I would resist any insistence that Democrats be shown any deference or that criticism of their dead-end politics be shelved until a time that's more convenient for their electoral outcomes. To do otherwise would be against the spirit of democracy.
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pietillidie
Joined: 07 Jan 2005
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^Fine, but you didn't create that game, so there's no need to take it on board and think you ought to be doing more. It's not your responsibility to do more than you can from the centre you have inherited to your own detriment. This is both unfair to the self and falling into the trap of martyrdom. You didn't create the rules of the game in which you're embedded; you only have so much leverage.
This is exactly why I don't demand people spend one cent more than others to prove their green credentials. It's not their job to pay for everyone else to parasite from their good sense. There is only one moral requirement: keep pushing for good policy and vote for the best outcomes the system throws out.
The challenge is to find a way to work the angles from the centre you inherited. Otherwise, you're unfairly penalising yourself, risking martyrdom and fundamentalism, and willing chaos in order to initiate radical change, in the same way 'disaster capitalists' and apocalyptic fanatics work.
_________________
In the end the rain comes down, washes clean the streets of a blue sky town.
Help Nick's: http://www.magpies.net/nick/bb/fundraising.htm
Last edited by pietillidie on Tue Sep 29, 2020 6:41 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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stui magpie 
Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.
Joined: 03 May 2005
Location: In flagrante delicto
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| watt price tully wrote: | If they don’t want Trump in people need to vote despite the gerrymandering, and the hurdles / blocks against blacks and other minorities in some states.
If I were running the campaign for the Democrats I’d just focus on the Coronavirus and his tax avoidance; the latter by saying ordinary workers paid more tax than he did. Keep it simple, repeat the message and stay on message. Make him the focus and how badly he has done. No more, no less. |
Lucky for the Democrats you aren't running their campaign then. 
That tactic will reinforce existing sentiment with those already decided against Trump but won't sway many of the undecided.
By all means bag Trump, but there needs to be a positive message. What are the Democrats going to do for you? WIIFM has decided many an election and simply wheeling out an animated corpse to repeat 'Orange Man Bad" won't win.
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Every dead body on Mt Everest was once a highly motivated person, so maybe just calm the **** down. |
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Jezza 
2023 PREMIERS!
Joined: 06 Sep 2010
Location: Ponsford End
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| watt price tully wrote: | | If I were running the campaign for the Democrats I’d just focus on the Coronavirus and his tax avoidance. |
I don't think these are winning issues on their own for Biden. Every poll I've read consistently has the economy being the number one issue that concerns American voters.
COVID is a bigger concern for Democratic voters than Republican voters. It will depend on whether independent voters are as worried about it as Democratic voters, or whether the economy is a bigger worry for them.
Purely anecdotal on my behalf, but I was surprised to hear from my cousin recently who lives in the US saying how a lot of people have moved on from worrying about COVID and they're now learning to deal with it as best as they can. The biggest concern is the economy and jobs based on what he was telling me.
Polling from the Pew Research Center done in late July to early August suggested the biggest issues for registered voters included the following:
- Economy (79%)
- Health care (68%)
- Supreme Court appointments (64%)
- COVID outbreak (62%)
- Violent crime (59%)
- Foreign policy (57%)
- Gun policy (55%)
- Race and ethnic inequality (52%)
- Immigration (52%)
- Economic inequality (49%)
- Climate change (42%)
- Abortion (40%)
Biden voters top issues:
- Health Care (84%)
- COVID outbreak (82%)
- Race and ethnic inequality (76%)
- Economy (72%)
- Climate change (68%)
- Supreme Court appointments (66%)
- Economic inequality (65%)
- Foreign policy (57%)
- Gun policy (50%)
Trump voters top issues:
- Economy (88%)
- Violent crime (74%)
- Supreme Court appointments (61%)
- Immigration (61%)
- Gun policy (60%)
- Foreign policy (57%)
Further, the poll said registered voters believed Democrats were better equipped to deal with COVID, climate change, health care, racial issues and immigration.
In contrast, Republicans scored better on the economy, terrorism, gun policy, law enforcement and justice, and foreign policy.
https://www.pewresearch.org/politics/2020/08/13/important-issues-in-the-2020-election/pp_2020-08-13_voter-attitudes_4-03/
Another poll published a few days ago surveying voters in battleground states seemed to back up the trends that we saw in the Pew Research poll on what the top issues were for Biden and Trump voters.
https://madison.com/wsj/news/local/govt-and-politics/new-poll-finds-big-gulf-on-top-issues-between-biden-trump-voters-in-battleground-states/article_e6b561d5-c142-535e-8354-139805638fb6.html
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watt price tully
Joined: 15 May 2007
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| stui magpie wrote: | | watt price tully wrote: | If they don’t want Trump in people need to vote despite the gerrymandering, and the hurdles / blocks against blacks and other minorities in some states.
If I were running the campaign for the Democrats I’d just focus on the Coronavirus and his tax avoidance; the latter by saying ordinary workers paid more tax than he did. Keep it simple, repeat the message and stay on message. Make him the focus and how badly he has done. No more, no less. |
Lucky for the Democrats you aren't running their campaign then.
That tactic will reinforce existing sentiment with those already decided against Trump but won't sway many of the undecided.
By all means bag Trump, but there needs to be a positive message. What are the Democrats going to do for you? WIIFM has decided many an election and simply wheeling out an animated corpse to repeat 'Orange Man Bad" won't win. |
No no, you missed the point and added your own.
Don't bag him, don't call him racist and he only appeals to rednecks: just stay on message about the cornonavirus and that ordinary people pay taxes and he doesn't. Make him the issue. He's trying like hell to avoid the coronavirus. He's trying like hell to make the other the mesage.
Stay on message as the polls (for what they are worth) are indicating his desperation to avoid talking about the coronavirus and 1/4 million deaths under his watch. Make him accountable.
However while doing so don't call him names, don't call him bad. Just hammer the message.
_________________
“I even went as far as becoming a Southern Baptist until I realised they didn’t keep ‘em under long enough” Kinky Friedman |
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watt price tully
Joined: 15 May 2007
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That's fine: the message is consistent: make him the the issue: It's under his presidency that violent crime he rails against has become worse: the tactic is make him the target through his record as POTUS: Societal division, violent, crime in street protests, Covid deaths all under this watch and chuck in his tax avoidance.
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“I even went as far as becoming a Southern Baptist until I realised they didn’t keep ‘em under long enough” Kinky Friedman |
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pietillidie
Joined: 07 Jan 2005
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The top issue for Cult Trump is...the economy. Is that a comedy routine?
Best double down on the crisis mismanagement debacle, risk management failure, economic collapse, trade war crisis and wealth gap horror by electing the Lord of Business Failure twice, as they did with the last monumental economic failure, George W.
I think we all know 'economy' to the Trump cult member is really code for, 'I agree to be made worse off to make you wealthier if it means you penalise them more than me'.
_________________
In the end the rain comes down, washes clean the streets of a blue sky town.
Help Nick's: http://www.magpies.net/nick/bb/fundraising.htm |
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