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watt price tully 
Joined: 15 May 2007
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Howard Jacobson
"Show me the jihadist with a well‑thumbed copy of Middlemarch in his back pocket". "It seems the majority of graduates recruited into Islamist terrorism studied sciences, not arts"
I love this line of his:
"...Ignorance is dangerous enough, but when ignorance is clothed in the assertiveness of certainty not just being certain but loving certaintys snarling exhilaration it is murderous..."
http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/show-me-the-jihadist-with-a-well-thumbed-copy-of-middlemarch-in-his-back-pocket-a6770006.html
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âI even went as far as becoming a Southern Baptist until I realised they didnât keep âem under long enoughâ Kinky Friedman |
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think positive 
Side By Side
Joined: 30 Jun 2005
Location: somewhere
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| Mugwump wrote: | | stui magpie wrote: | | What does a degree in humanities actually qualify someone to do anyway apart from growing a beard and riding a bicycle around Brunswick? |
It used to qualify you to write well, to clearly separate facts from the value that is to be placed on them, and to value your culture and its choices within the framework of common meaning it confers. In some cases, such as analytic philosophy, it occasionally helped you to reason clearly and sequentially. Today, however, a degree in humanities seems more likely to disqualify you from each of the above.
This is very unfortunate. If abolishing the humanities is an act of cultural seppuku, as David said, then retaining them in their present form is a little like an act of slow cultural poisoning. |
Well I don't know what school you went to or what you studied, but you explain things (some things I've never read about too) really clearly, and without any undertones for the reader, no matter how ignorant on the subject they are. Well done!
I didn't go to uni, but I remember a teacher at high school telling us when we wrote an essay one time " pretend I know nothing about the subject, you have to tell me from scratch". (Funny how some things just lodge in your memory, and you never forget them! His name was Mr James, he was my home room teacher, cute, lived in Carlton, bit of a hippy, and a really nice guy, and a great teacher. You learn a lot from teachers who can do it without making you feel stupid) Hmm, maybe that's why I find most mothers less condescending than a lot of people, we are use to teaching things from point zero without judgement!
I googled the phrase, seems my memory serves me well! Also got these quotes from Socrates, must have been a very interesting guy
The only true wisdom is in knowing you know nothing.
― Socrates
"Education is the kindling of a flame, not the filling of a vessel.
― Socrates
But my favourite:
By all means marry; if you get a good wife, youll become happy; if you get a bad one, youll become a philosopher.
― Socrates
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You cant fix stupid, turns out you cant quarantine it either! |
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think positive
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Joined: 30 Jun 2005
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Not really sure how Muslims and terrorists and Isis managed to get into this thread (see, they really are infiltrating everything!) but I would have thought jihads would be far more likely to come from a stream that deals with the philosophical side of things rather than the scientific side.surely that's common sense?
Interesting article on the recruiting, bloody terrifying actually. From a journalist who can keep you reading!
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/may/26/french-journalist-poses-muslim-convert-isis-anna-erelle
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You cant fix stupid, turns out you cant quarantine it either! |
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David
I dare you to try
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda
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Socrates: some guy who should have quit his useless bludging and given back to society by studying accounting.
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think positive
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Joined: 30 Jun 2005
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| David wrote: | | Socrates: some guy who should have quit his useless bludging and given back to society by studying accounting. |
he was a mason by trade (labourous work, hardly budging and served in the armoured infantry, gave to society before he had something to pay back) he earned his living as a teacher whilst dabbling in philosophy, So yeah, not a bludger!
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You cant fix stupid, turns out you cant quarantine it either!
Last edited by think positive on Thu Dec 24, 2015 8:50 am; edited 1 time in total |
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David
I dare you to try
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda
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Some more news on the Japanese proposal, from back in September:
http://time.com/4035819/japan-university-liberal-arts-humanities-social-sciences-cuts/
| Quote: | Law and economics fall within the purview of the condemned disciplines. Seventeen universities will no longer recruit students to study them; the rest will eliminate elective courses within them. The Universities of Tokyo and Kyoto Japans only two universities to clear the top hundred in world university rankings said they would not heed the governments call.
The vision is utilitarian, in line with Prime Minister Shinzo Abes results-oriented drive to reassert Japans economic and political stature. Officials have expressed concern that Japanese research in the natural sciences is faltering, and so rather than deepening academic research that is highly theoretical, we will conduct more practical vocational education that better anticipates the needs of society, Abe said last year.
Last month, Takamitsu Sawa, president of Shiga University, wrote an op-ed in the Japan Times denouncing the ministrys philosophy, calling its proposals outrageous and its leaders anti-intellectuals. She cited one member of an Education Ministry panel who purportedly claimed that humanities students at most Japanese universities should study software programming for bookkeeping and accounting in place of Paul Samuelsons Economics, and the skills of orally translating between Japanese and English rather than reading Shakespeares works.
Others in Japanese higher education have joined in the criticism. On July 23, the executive board of the Science Council of Japan a multidisciplinary organization of Japanese scientists released a statement expressing profound concern over the edict against the humanities and social sciences. |
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All watched over by machines of loving grace |
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David
I dare you to try
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda
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| think positive wrote: | | David wrote: | | Socrates: some guy who should have quit his useless bludging and given back to society by studying accounting. |
he was a mason by trade (labourous work, hardly budging and served in the armoured infantry, gave to society before he had something to pay back) he earned his living as a teacher whilst dabbling in philosophy, So yeah, not a bludger! |
Nevertheless, he (presuming he was a real person) lived in a society that valued the teaching of classic literature and philosophy. Within the aristocracy, at least, intellectual pursuits were seen as something with inherent value. How, in nearly 2500 years of human history, could some people have forgotten that?
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All watched over by machines of loving grace |
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think positive
Side By Side
Joined: 30 Jun 2005
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| David wrote: | | think positive wrote: | | David wrote: | | Socrates: some guy who should have quit his useless bludging and given back to society by studying accounting. |
he was a mason by trade (labourous work, hardly budging and served in the armoured infantry, gave to society before he had something to pay back) he earned his living as a teacher whilst dabbling in philosophy, So yeah, not a bludger! |
Nevertheless, he (presuming he was a real person) lived in a society that valued the teaching of classic literature and philosophy. Within the aristocracy, at least, intellectual pursuits were seen as something with inherent value. How, in nearly 2500 years of human history, could some people have forgotten that? |
maybe they haven't? maybe they are just tired of some people thinking they should get paid to sit by the window, gaze off into space and think up ways to degenerate those doing the work to pay for them doing it?
of course thats not what i really think about those subjects, but lately it seems your opinion has to be hard left or right!! no straight steering like a supercharged jetski with the plane angle too high!
Of course there is a place for those subjects, its ridiculous!! but hey, its Japan, what do you expect? they dont strike me as a very emotional race!!
this thread came to mind when i saw this on the facebook page of a lazy scumbag:
http://i.imgur.com/nLYrPAV.jpg
no worries, but someone has to feed and clothe you and your family!!
yes Socrates words were valued, still are, but he paid his way. might be different if he had not!!
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You cant fix stupid, turns out you cant quarantine it either! |
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David
I dare you to try
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda
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The point, perhaps, is that Socrates more than paid his way in his philosophical contributions to his society alone. Even if he'd never worked a day in his life, what he gave to society would still be much greater than most of us hard-working taxpayers could ever hope to contribute.
As for that post, I think those are very human desires. It doesn't necessarily mean it's a functional way to live in our society or something one should put into practice, but it strikes me as a far wiser attitude than assessing your self-worth by your job description or annual wage.
Surely you don't actually believe that the average Japanese person has fewer emotions than the average Australian, though? Sorry, couldn't let that one pass!
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All watched over by machines of loving grace |
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watt price tully
Joined: 15 May 2007
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| think positive wrote: | Not really sure how Muslims and terrorists and Isis managed to get into this thread (see, they really are infiltrating everything!) but I would have thought jihads would be far more likely to come from a stream that deals with the philosophical side of things rather than the scientific side.surely that's common sense?
..... |
The reason for posting this was in response to Stui's "what have the Romans ever done for us etc in his teasing way" & the Japanese response of the OP.
Literature & the arts should invite reason, questioning, doubt etc not the certainty that violent fundamentalists display which has little to do with philosophy.
However as Jacobson goes on to playfully say:
"....The real question is whether a degree in English literature might deter him (The terrorist) . Apparently afraid of such an eventuality, Isis has, according to the study, eliminated law, fine arts, archaeology, philosophy and political science from curricula in areas it controls. Might this, then, be our way of fighting back? Instead of bombing the caliphate, should we be dropping copies of Middlemarch?...."
Middlemarch (or any decent classical fiction) evokes history, passion, the subject of women, uncertainty, discussion, ambiguity, nuance and power.
Indeed as Jacobson paraphrases:
The overwhelming majority of graduates recruited into Islamist terrorism studied engineering, science and medicine. Almost none are social science or arts graduates.
_________________
âI even went as far as becoming a Southern Baptist until I realised they didnât keep âem under long enoughâ Kinky Friedman |
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think positive
Side By Side
Joined: 30 Jun 2005
Location: somewhere
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| David wrote: | The point, perhaps, is that Socrates more than paid his way in his philosophical contributions to his society alone. Even if he'd never worked a day in his life, what he gave to society would still be much greater than most of us hard-working taxpayers could ever hope to contribute.
As for that post, I think those are very human desires. It doesn't necessarily mean it's a functional way to live in our society or something one should put into practice, but it strikes me as a far wiser attitude than assessing your self-worth by your job description or annual wage.
Surely you don't actually believe that the average Japanese person has fewer emotions than the average Australian, though? Sorry, couldn't let that one pass! |
The greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the way its animals are treated.
― Mahatma Gandhi
ill let Japans atrocious animal rights record stand for itself, then you can get onto war crimes if you like.
and yes very human desires, fair and good ones too, as long as you are paying to support it, or have done in the past, just like....Socrates did!!
philosophical contributions are great, but they wont feed you, even Jesus worked for a living!!
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You cant fix stupid, turns out you cant quarantine it either! |
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watt price tully
Joined: 15 May 2007
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| David wrote: | The point, perhaps, is that Socrates more than paid his way in his philosophical contributions to his society alone. Even if he'd never worked a day in his life, what he gave to society would still be much greater than most of us hard-working taxpayers could ever hope to contribute.
As for that post, I think those are very human desires. It doesn't necessarily mean it's a functional way to live in our society or something one should put into practice, but it strikes me as a far wiser attitude than assessing your self-worth by your job description or annual wage.
Surely you don't actually believe that the average Japanese person has fewer emotions than the average Australian, though? Sorry, couldn't let that one pass! |
Might be time to bring in the republic  Certainly, it would give us some certainty. Of that you can be certain.
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âI even went as far as becoming a Southern Baptist until I realised they didnât keep âem under long enoughâ Kinky Friedman |
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Lazza
Joined: 04 Feb 2003
Location: Bendigo, Victoria, Australia
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| stui magpie wrote: | | God help us all if we have to rely on humanties students for intellectual debate. |
I challenge you to engage me any time for an intelligent debate on most topics good dude! I think I will smash your obsession with blithely generalising people into student categories for a start... 
Pretty dumb thing to do really. 
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Don't confuse your current path with your final destination. Just because it's dark and stormy now doesn't meant that you aren't headed for glorious sunshine! |
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think positive
Side By Side
Joined: 30 Jun 2005
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| Lazza wrote: | | stui magpie wrote: | | God help us all if we have to rely on humanties students for intellectual debate. |
I challenge you to engage me any time for an intelligent debate on most topics good dude! I think I will smash your obsession with blithely generalising people into student categories for a start...
Pretty dumb thing to do really. |
that makes it 6
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You cant fix stupid, turns out you cant quarantine it either! |
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Jezza 
2023 PREMIERS!
Joined: 06 Sep 2010
Location: Ponsford End
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| think positive wrote: | Not really sure how Muslims and terrorists and Isis managed to get into this thread (see, they really are infiltrating everything!) but I would have thought jihads would be far more likely to come from a stream that deals with the philosophical side of things rather than the scientific side.surely that's common sense?
Interesting article on the recruiting, bloody terrifying actually. From a journalist who can keep you reading!
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/may/26/french-journalist-poses-muslim-convert-isis-anna-erelle |
Fascinating read TP! Thanks for the link.
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