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Gone Critical
Joined: 18 Jan 2015
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| yin-YANG wrote: | I don't agree with OP.
I like the idea of having this kind of discussion without the heat and emotion of a loss… however I think the sting of last season is dripping in the suggestions put forward.
When we look back at the 2010 premiership team there were some players who were overtaken as we pushed on for premiership glory. However they were older players in their late 20's or early 30's that were overtaken by youth with talent. The list with Adams and Frost included is quite frankly off track… Both of these hard nuts will be crucial to our future success with the slicksters.
Goldy and White are older players that might be in the category of needing to be overtaken - but I would prefer to focus on the here and now and quite clearly White has stepped up the intensity and there is no-one else doing Goldy's role. Blair and Faz performed their role for the team on the weekend and if they continue with such form they will stay in the team. High intensity and scoring goals is what we need from our forwards new or old and they both delivered.
The important aspect is that the young guys coming up need to also demand a spot - there is two aspects of being overtaken - not just picking on a few ugly ducklings. The young guys have potential - I would love to see Freeman and Berg our there ripping it up - but they need to earn it from performances not based on premature ejections from dreamy types…  |
Perfectly put |
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Neil Appleby 
Joined: 11 Feb 1998
Location: Melbourne
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| The Weed wrote: | | Neil Appleby wrote: | | BTW, whilst you're in the mood for compiling lists, how about a list of Nick's Posters who won't be around come 2018-19 and beyond. That could be a lot of fun. BTW, where is colliedog? |
I have a suspicion CollieDog has come back as the most positive poster on Nicks just to continue his trolling ways. He also doesn't mind bringing up the Hawks. Can guess who I mean? |
Yes and I think you are correct.
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After the epic draw comes the decisive knockout!
Collingwood rules the world again and Mick Malthouse fulfils his destiny with the twenty ten premiership and can you hear the people sing! |
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Neil Appleby
Joined: 11 Feb 1998
Location: Melbourne
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| Johnny1975 wrote: | A first-time poster, forgive the intrusion. I do think that there are always players, even in the best sides, who aren't 'ideal 22' players. Even Hawthorn have their Spanghers and Simpkins' types. And so I don't think that there needs to be a great anxiety about which players in our list would or wouldn't fit in a premiership side.
Having said that, there are always players who (it is hoped) will be overtaken by younger talent, or by players who are better but who've been injured. I don't think that Frost is a candidate to be picked off on either front. He's a determined kid who has stood up to every challenge thrown his way. His 2014 was phenomenal, only a step (or two) behind Langdon. He will develop more, if given the chance, and I can easily envision him being part of a brighter future for the Pies.
Goldsack is another one who gets unfairly maligned. He might tackle himself into an early retirement, but until that day arrives I have no doubt that he'll continue to make us a better team. Everyone is there to be overtaken, and yet there's no one on the horizon who does what he does.
The others in the list are certainly vulnerable. I maintain some hope that Williams might start to resemble the player we saw in 2013, and I hope that White and Fas can give us more than they have. If not, then let the future roll on... |
Welcome to Nick's. That's an impressive debut post. You're not Bucks in disguise are you?
_________________
After the epic draw comes the decisive knockout!
Collingwood rules the world again and Mick Malthouse fulfils his destiny with the twenty ten premiership and can you hear the people sing! |
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Johnny1975
Joined: 30 Sep 2014
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| Neil Appleby wrote: | | Johnny1975 wrote: | A first-time poster, forgive the intrusion. I do think that there are always players, even in the best sides, who aren't 'ideal 22' players. Even Hawthorn have their Spanghers and Simpkins' types. And so I don't think that there needs to be a great anxiety about which players in our list would or wouldn't fit in a premiership side.
Having said that, there are always players who (it is hoped) will be overtaken by younger talent, or by players who are better but who've been injured. I don't think that Frost is a candidate to be picked off on either front. He's a determined kid who has stood up to every challenge thrown his way. His 2014 was phenomenal, only a step (or two) behind Langdon. He will develop more, if given the chance, and I can easily envision him being part of a brighter future for the Pies.
Goldsack is another one who gets unfairly maligned. He might tackle himself into an early retirement, but until that day arrives I have no doubt that he'll continue to make us a better team. Everyone is there to be overtaken, and yet there's no one on the horizon who does what he does.
The others in the list are certainly vulnerable. I maintain some hope that Williams might start to resemble the player we saw in 2013, and I hope that White and Fas can give us more than they have. If not, then let the future roll on... |
Welcome to Nick's. That's an impressive debut post. You're not Bucks in disguise are you? |
Thanks Neil. My partner suggests that I sometimes seem to think that I'm Bucks, but she kindly reminds me that I just don't have the chest for the job.
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Go Pies. |
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RudeBoy
Joined: 28 Nov 2005
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| Pies4shaw wrote: | | RudeBoy wrote: | | I think the person who we most need to be overtaken is Cloke. We need someone who we can rely upon to actually kick goals. Hopefully Darcy Moore will be that player, but it does concern me that the club has him playing in the VFL as a defender. |
In the four completed seasons since Collingwood won the flag, Cloke has kicked 235 goals, at an average of 2.6 goals per game. He had a poor season by his standards in 2014 but still kicked 1.95 goals per game (and, as it happens, 1 goal more - in 4 less games - than he kicked in 2010). If one looks at Collingwood's present playing list, there is no other player with anything near like a two-goal per game career goal-kicking average. After Cloke (1.81 goals per game over his entire career), the nearest is Jamie Elliott, who averages about 1.3 goals per game (and averaged 2 goals per game last year).
Thus, Collingwood clearly has a vacancy for a second KPF, unless Reid is going to play forward. Darcy Moore may be a part of the answer but he wouldn't be replacing Cloke (although he might play closer to goal, with Cloke playing more as a CHF) - he'd just be filling what is presently another big hole up forward.
It is worth bearing in mind that the 2010 Grand Final was won by a team in which no-one on the day kicked more than 2 goals - but five players (Cloke, Dawes, Didak, Wellingham, Sidebottom) each kicked 2. Fast forward to 2015 and there aren't any players in the present Collingwood side apart from Cloke that you might confidently pencil in to kick 2 goals on a given day.
Put another way, in 2012, after Cloke's 59 goals, Beams, Fasolo, Swan, Goldsack and Thomas (so 6 players in all) each bettered 20 goals. In 2011, after Cloke's 69 goals, Krak and Swanny both bettered 30 goals and 6 other players kicked over 20 goals. That's 9 players - half a starting 18 - who were going at about a goal or game or better over that year (and it was the same in 2010). By 2014, there were only 3 players in total who bettered 20 goals for the season.
That's partly a reflection of a general decline in team performance but it also suggests that the support for Cloke has fallen away rapidly. Merely substituting another player for Cloke in the present side won't solve that problem. |
Hard to argue with your excellent analysis. Don't misunderstand me, Cloke is without doubt, clearly our best power forward. I guess all I'm really saying is that we'd be a better side if we had key forward who was a more reliable kick for goal. Remember, if Cloke had not missed those sitters in the first 2010 Grand final we would have won the Premiership a week earlier than we did. His poor kicking almost cost us a flag. |
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KenH 
Joined: 24 Jan 2010
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We need 3-4 players to overtake Pendles, then how good would we be?
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Cheers big ears |
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Pies4shaw 
pies4shaw
Joined: 08 Oct 2007
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| RudeBoy wrote: | | Pies4shaw wrote: | | RudeBoy wrote: | | I think the person who we most need to be overtaken is Cloke. We need someone who we can rely upon to actually kick goals. Hopefully Darcy Moore will be that player, but it does concern me that the club has him playing in the VFL as a defender. |
In the four completed seasons since Collingwood won the flag, Cloke has kicked 235 goals, at an average of 2.6 goals per game. He had a poor season by his standards in 2014 but still kicked 1.95 goals per game (and, as it happens, 1 goal more - in 4 less games - than he kicked in 2010). If one looks at Collingwood's present playing list, there is no other player with anything near like a two-goal per game career goal-kicking average. After Cloke (1.81 goals per game over his entire career), the nearest is Jamie Elliott, who averages about 1.3 goals per game (and averaged 2 goals per game last year).
Thus, Collingwood clearly has a vacancy for a second KPF, unless Reid is going to play forward. Darcy Moore may be a part of the answer but he wouldn't be replacing Cloke (although he might play closer to goal, with Cloke playing more as a CHF) - he'd just be filling what is presently another big hole up forward.
It is worth bearing in mind that the 2010 Grand Final was won by a team in which no-one on the day kicked more than 2 goals - but five players (Cloke, Dawes, Didak, Wellingham, Sidebottom) each kicked 2. Fast forward to 2015 and there aren't any players in the present Collingwood side apart from Cloke that you might confidently pencil in to kick 2 goals on a given day.
Put another way, in 2012, after Cloke's 59 goals, Beams, Fasolo, Swan, Goldsack and Thomas (so 6 players in all) each bettered 20 goals. In 2011, after Cloke's 69 goals, Krak and Swanny both bettered 30 goals and 6 other players kicked over 20 goals. That's 9 players - half a starting 18 - who were going at about a goal or game or better over that year (and it was the same in 2010). By 2014, there were only 3 players in total who bettered 20 goals for the season.
That's partly a reflection of a general decline in team performance but it also suggests that the support for Cloke has fallen away rapidly. Merely substituting another player for Cloke in the present side won't solve that problem. |
Hard to argue with your excellent analysis. Don't misunderstand me, Cloke is without doubt, clearly our best power forward. I guess all I'm really saying is that we'd be a better side if we had key forward who was a more reliable kick for goal. Remember, if Cloke had not missed those sitters in the first 2010 Grand final we would have won the Premiership a week earlier than we did. His poor kicking almost cost us a flag. |
You'll get no disagreement from me. I would like to see him play further up the ground, feeding the guys who kick straight, if we could develop a genuine goal-square target. |
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Pies4shaw
pies4shaw
Joined: 08 Oct 2007
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| KenH wrote: | | We need 3-4 players to overtake Pendles, then how good would we be? |
Think of the salary cap issues  |
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Santo 
Joined: 08 Aug 2006
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Good thread.
in the coming years I'd like to see these guys replaced, this is despite reading Gone Criticals post, which was very hard to find a counter-argument too, it's great to have such posters on Collingwood bulletin boards... 
Blair out, Kennedy in, will offer what Blair does and a lot more, don't be fooled by stats, or Blair's last game, Blair was dreadful last year and if he performs like he did last night he stay in, but if he performs like last year, he must go.
Williams out, Oxley in. Oxley is going to make it, is very smooth.
Swan out, Freeman in. Swan is on the slide and now a shadow of his former self. Will need to be replaced, just as Didak, Davis, Daicos, Buckley needed to be replaced, perhaps irreplaceable.
Goldsack out, Maynard in, we can only hope this guy becomes the player we want him to be.
Toovey out, Scharenberg in. Tooves kicks too many helicopters for mine. And I don't think he will get back to what he was pre ACL which is ironic given who I have coming in, who apparently oozes class, apparently.
Varcoe out, Broomhead in. I'd like to see this move quick sticks.
I'd also like to see some A grade crumbers. At long last, Davis out... mercurial crumber X in.???
White OUT, Moore in, almost forgot this one.
Brown out, Marsh in. Marsh is going to be very good over time.
Langdon Marsh Scharenberg
Oxley Reid Sinclair
Freeman Pendlebury Broomhead
Kennedy Cloke DeGoey
Elliott Witts Moore
Grundy Sidebottom Adams
Greenwood Maynard Seedsman Crisp |
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Pies4shaw
pies4shaw
Joined: 08 Oct 2007
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| Post subject: Re: Players who need to be overtaken | |
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| Pies4shaw wrote: | The best time to try to start a fair discussion about the quality of the team is probably just after a win. I think there is a lot of scope for a sensible debate about the longer-term make-up of the side and I would like to kick that off in the hope that a sensible and respectful discussion can be had. I appreciate, of course, that we all have different opinions and that many of you won't agree with some (or all) of what I have to say.
Looking at the present side, I think there are quite a few players running around who won't be in the next Collingwood premiership team because they lack the requisite attributes (football skills or the appropriate size/speed for their positions). I start by stressing that I am not particularly looking for any of them to be dropped in the short-term and I am not particularly criticising the present performance of any of them (indeed, some were amongst our better performers against the Bears and two of them are amongst my personal favourites) but I think the team will only be seriously competitive against the best teams when most (at least) of the following players are overtaken by upgrades:
Frost (quick and a good stopper - though not on the monster forwards - but below par with the ball in hand. There is only room for one lock-down KPD and Nathan Brown is a much better all-round footballer)
Williams (quick enough but completely one-sided. Most clubs seem to have worked out that he can only go one way and are forcing him to turn it over, repeatedly)
Blair (a courageous, feisty competitor who leads by example but isn't quick enough, fast enough or a big enough kick to be a star small forward or a consistent mid)
White (quick and big but just cannot read the game at all, hence his continuing inability to make contests, sometimes for an hour at a time)
Goldsack (with Blair, one of my favourites but not quite good enough at anything)
Fasolo (good ball skills but slow, can't or won't chase and relies way too heavily on Sidebottom giving him the ball on a plate within scoring distance).
I remain undecided about Sinclair - on the one hand, he is starting to use his pace to break the lines, on the other hand, I think he will probably always be too small to play as a running half-back or back-pocket in a top team (cf, for example, the likes of Heath Shaw, H and Burgoyne).
I am also undecided about Adams but he can get the ball in traffic and is starting to show glimpses of understanding that his job at this level is to give it to the people who can use the football (even including, on occasion, Collingwood players ).
For the most part, there look to be replacements available, although not immediately. Assuming Reid comes back, he and Moore can take the place of Frost and White (and it is a matter of taste which of them plays forward and which plays back). It is also possible that Marsh's continuing development will see him in a key defensive position in the future, or taking Goldsack's spare-parts role. Scharenberg should be a quality half-back for a long time. Freeman/Kennedy/Broomhead should all go past Blair in time. Of course, it is possible that they will have to cover for Swan and Pendlebury, as well, if we have to wait more than a couple of seasons for the team to get back to the top. I would like to see PK take Fasolo's spot - he is bigger, faster and an upgrade in almost every way but I am yet to be persuaded that he wants it enough. I'm not yet clear who the Goldsack "spare parts" player might be - but there are a number of potential utilities. Ultimately, I'd also like to see both Witts and Grundy playing ruck/forward - they are both quality footballers - and massive with it.
On the (present) fringes, Gault, Ramsay, Seedsman, Crisp, De Goey and Oxley all look like they can be good, solid footballers, at the least.
I would round out my observations by adding that I don't see any serious role in a top-4 team going forward for any of Dwyer (another of my favourites), Armstrong, Macaffer or Young. Also, I haven't commented on Greenwood because I haven't seen enough of him, yet, or Thomas or Keeffe (for the obvious reason), or a number of the kids who've had very limited exposure, so far. |
I've never been much interested in a "best 22" analysis (it tends to involve putting on the usual obvious incumbents and throwing darts at a board to select the name to slot into the uncertain spots) but I am interested in the number of players up to the requisite standard that are on our senior list at any one time.
So, here we are. Three seasons on after I started this thread and we've lost Frost, Williams and White for certain. Goldsack remains (which is fine with me - Goldsack is a personal favourite of mine) and the future for Blair and Fasolo is unclear as I write. Dwyer, Armstrong, Macaffer and Young are also all gone.
Meanwhile, of the players I then hoped might come through, Moore and Adams are first 22 players and Reid is back but Sinclair's career looks to be teetering on a knife-edge and all of the following players who I then thought might have roles going forward, namely Marsh, Freeman, Kennedy, Karnezis, Witts, Gault and Seedsman, are gone.
I appreciate that it is ahead of trade period and drafting but I am very concerned about the quality of the best team we can presently put on the park.
Looking through the senior list, there are, in my view, 14 players that we can be confident have the talent and aptitude to perform to the necessary standard in a final. They are:
Fasolo, Wells, Grundy, Elliott, Treloar, Langdon, Pendlebury, Adams, Varcoe, Reid, Sidey, Moore, WHE and Howe. There are a couple of other players (Goldsack, in particular) that we know were capable of doing so and would leave everything on the field for Collingwood, if they got another chance.
That leaves some players that we hope (in some cases without much objective evidence, at this stage) might improve to reach the required standard. They are:
JDG, Scharenberg, Aish, Brown, Phillips, Crisp, Daicos, Kirby, Ramsay, Wills, McLarty, Sier, Maynard, Crocker, Smith, Schade and Cox.
In addition, there are a few experienced players who are probably around the mark but certainly aren't stars and likely won't star in a big final against the best teams.
Assuming Fasolo stays, then, I see 8 spots in the first 22 being up for grabs in the medium-term (although not, of course, for round 1, 2018), even if all of our established and "quality" players are injury-free and don't decline.
Is this going to be an impediment to us starting to move back up the ladder? |
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duke750
Joined: 11 Nov 2005
Location: Buderim QLD
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Of the players that you "left out", I would add JDG, Crisp, Cox and Maynard to our best available at the moment. JDG is very good, Crisp has played 66 games in a row, Cox will develop to be very influential and Maynard is going to be handy. Not sure about Phillips, but he kicks goals. Shaz is interesting because he has lots of talent but needs to build up body strength and kicking depth. We may have to delay our call until this time next year. Kirby, Faicos and Brown gave potential, but need to develop. I actually think that Kirby is closer to AFL body size than Daicos or Brown...
Aish has lots of skill and courage, but may not be quite up to it. Schaefer needs to become bigger. I haven't seen anything yet to excite me about him.
The rest don't really rate...they may be good VFL players, but that's all.
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Magpies forever.
First Colligwood game: Western Oval 1960 |
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Pies2016
Joined: 12 Sep 2014
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Let's see -
No ready made KPD under 30
No ready made KPF over 22
No outside pace under 30
No lock down small defender we can trust against fast crumbling opposition forwards
No players ( maybe one ) capable of providing elite repeat defensive pressure inside our forward 50.
What would make anyone think we have more than a few holes to fill ? |
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RudeBoy
Joined: 28 Nov 2005
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Players who need to be overtaken (if not de-listed or traded) are:
Oxley
Blair
Sier
White (ret)
Crocker
Phillips (unless his decision-making improves)
Goldsack (by year's end)
Scharenberg (sorry guys, but sadly his body just ain't up to it)
Aish (just an OK player)
As well I haven't seen enough of the following to make an assessment:
McArthy
Lynch
Mackie |
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MightyMagpie
Joined: 04 Jun 2013
Location: WA
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I think the first 5 on your list are on the chopping block or 50/50 at best to remain senior listed (obviously JW has retired).
I think you are underrating Phillips and Goldsack. Age is Goldsack's only flaw and Phillips has a very high relative rating for age/position.
I kind of agree on the last 2, but Scharenberg we may be pot committed to try him for a full season. Aish frustrates the hell out of me ... I think it is a confidence issue with him. Maybe he will come to the fore if we start dominating.
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All We Can Be |
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RudeBoy
Joined: 28 Nov 2005
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| MightyMagpie wrote: | I think the first 5 on your list are on the chopping block or 50/50 at best to remain senior listed (obviously JW has retired).
I think you are underrating Phillips and Goldsack. Age is Goldsack's only flaw and Phillips has a very high relative rating for age/position.
I kind of agree on the last 2, but Scharenberg we may be pot committed to try him for a full season. Aish frustrates the hell out of me ... I think it is a confidence issue with him. Maybe he will come to the fore if we start dominating. |
Don't get me wrong, I actually rate Phillips, but he has some deficiencies which need rectifying if he is to remain in our best 22. As for Goldy, he's just come off his best ever year and is a true warrior, but I'm simply listing him because of his age and wear and tear. While I've been harping on about both Schaz and Aish for 2 years now, I still hope I'm wrong about them. I have never rated either of them, but much better judges than me do, so I guess there's still hope they'll come good. I just can't see it. |
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