Players who need to be overtaken

[Pies4shaw]

The best time to try to start a fair discussion about the quality of the team is probably just after a win. I think there is a lot of scope for a sensible debate about the longer-term make-up of the side and I would like to kick that off in the hope that a sensible and respectful discussion can be had. I appreciate, of course, that we all have different opinions and that many of you won't agree with some (or all) of what I have to say.

Looking at the present side, I think there are quite a few players running around who won't be in the next Collingwood premiership team because they lack the requisite attributes (football skills or the appropriate size/speed for their positions). I start by stressing that I am not particularly looking for any of them to be dropped in the short-term and I am not particularly criticising the present performance of any of them (indeed, some were amongst our better performers against the Bears and two of them are amongst my personal favourites) but I think the team will only be seriously competitive against the best teams when most (at least) of the following players are overtaken by upgrades:

Frost (quick and a good stopper - though not on the monster forwards - but below par with the ball in hand. There is only room for one lock-down KPD and Nathan Brown is a much better all-round footballer)
Williams (quick enough but completely one-sided. Most clubs seem to have worked out that he can only go one way and are forcing him to turn it over, repeatedly)
Blair (a courageous, feisty competitor who leads by example but isn't quick enough, fast enough or a big enough kick to be a star small forward or a consistent mid)
White (quick and big but just cannot read the game at all, hence his continuing inability to make contests, sometimes for an hour at a time)
Goldsack (with Blair, one of my favourites but not quite good enough at anything)
Fasolo (good ball skills but slow, can't or won't chase and relies way too heavily on Sidebottom giving him the ball on a plate within scoring distance).

I remain undecided about Sinclair - on the one hand, he is starting to use his pace to break the lines, on the other hand, I think he will probably always be too small to play as a running half-back or back-pocket in a top team (cf, for example, the likes of Heath Shaw, H and Burgoyne).

I am also undecided about Adams but he can get the ball in traffic and is starting to show glimpses of understanding that his job at this level is to give it to the people who can use the football (even including, on occasion, Collingwood players ).

For the most part, there look to be replacements available, although not immediately. Assuming Reid comes back, he and Moore can take the place of Frost and White (and it is a matter of taste which of them plays forward and which plays back). It is also possible that Marsh's continuing development will see him in a key defensive position in the future, or taking Goldsack's spare-parts role. Scharenberg should be a quality half-back for a long time. Freeman/Kennedy/Broomhead should all go past Blair in time. Of course, it is possible that they will have to cover for Swan and Pendlebury, as well, if we have to wait more than a couple of seasons for the team to get back to the top. I would like to see PK take Fasolo's spot - he is bigger, faster and an upgrade in almost every way but I am yet to be persuaded that he wants it enough. I'm not yet clear who the Goldsack "spare parts" player might be - but there are a number of potential utilities. Ultimately, I'd also like to see both Witts and Grundy playing ruck/forward - they are both quality footballers - and massive with it.

On the (present) fringes, Gault, Ramsay, Seedsman, Crisp, De Goey and Oxley all look like they can be good, solid footballers, at the least.

I would round out my observations by adding that I don't see any serious role in a top-4 team going forward for any of Dwyer (another of my favourites), Armstrong, Macaffer or Young. Also, I haven't commented on Greenwood because I haven't seen enough of him, yet, or Thomas or Keeffe (for the obvious reason), or a number of the kids who've had very limited exposure, so far.

[Damien]

I would like to point out that McCaffer, Blair and Goldsack are already premiership players. I don't think any of them were particularly brilliant in 2010 but the point is they played a role in a side which went all the way. It's a matter of right time right place. The fact is that not everyone you mentioned will be there when the Pies next go all the way, history tells us that. But trying to determine who will and who won't is folly. I think you're being pretty tough on several of them. Example: Frost did a number on the best forward in the game last year, Buddy. He's a kid and I will probably be better this year and then again next, so why the bleak outlook for him?

[GoWoodsmen]

[E]

[Pies4shaw]

I fully expect all of those players to be selected this week. I would pick all of them (possibly even White) for the next game, if it were left to me. That's not the discussion I was hoping to start.

[neil]

Too harsh on Frost and yes N Brown is a better KPD at this point in time but what about injuries reports etc

[3rd degree]

Goldsack (with Blair, one of my favourites but not quite good enough at anything)

What do you mean not good at anything? have you seen him play totem tennis , he would own you!
On top of that the man is one of our toughest lads and leads by example have a look at his final verses WCE in 2012.

Sure he is getting older, but never goes wondering!

[RudeBoy]

Adams? Really?

[HAL]

For real.

[Tannin]

An excellent post, Pies4shaw, and not deserving of the negativity I'm seeing in the responses.

Naturally I don't agree with you as to all of the specifics, but your overall thrust is spot on. These players (well, more or less these players, as we will see I don't agree with all of the ones you mentioned) are the one who, if we are going to be brutally honest, wouldn't get close to getting a game with Hawthorn, and probably wouldn't get a gig with Freo or Geelong either.

No disrespect to any of them, and one or two of them are virtually certain to find a way to lift a cog and figure in our next premiership, but you can only go into a big finals match with so many spear carriers. You need a side with serious skills and heaps of ability.

--------------------------------------------

Now, to quibble about specifics:

I'd cross out Frost on your list and replace him with Brown. (Tannin ducks for cover, reaches for earplugs against the howls of outrage.) Frost is faster than Brown, covers a lot more ground, much better overhead, has disposal no worse, can contest with the tall ruckman-forward types Brown can't seem to stop, is much younger, and less likely to get injured.

What's more, we are seeing Frost played out of position up the ground: he's just a kid and he is having to learn a whole new role in the side. (In your head, swap them over and see what you get.)

White is on his last throw of the dice, I reckon. He has been Mr Inconsistent for year after year now, first at Sydney and now here. He's got about three months, a year at the outside, to find consistent form - I'd set the bar about the way he played this week: if he could do that every week I'd be happy with him - before one of Gault or Moore takes his spot away forever.

Like you, I have a lot of time for Dwyer, and like you I can't quite see him making it at his age.

Goldy ... well, Goldy tends to get better with each game he plays, and takes a hell of a long time to get himself up to his best. He needs to play every game, and if he does, he becomes a very useful man indeed. But if he goes out with injury for more than a week, he shouldn't come back in again. We can't afford to spend three or four weeks waiting for him to play himself back into form.

Williams? I haven't seen Williams this year. There is some other chap wearing his number, does some nice things and he has a red hot go, but he's not half as good as young Williams used to be.

[Pies4shaw]

Thanks for the thoughtful response, Tannin. I know we disagree about specifics - and I'm not surprised that many others disagree with (at least) some of my views - but I think there are reasonable issues to be raised and debated, without denigrating any of the players involved.

[Damien]

I certainly wasn't intending to be negative in my response. Many of the players you used as examples have age on their side and I think back to guys who had the work ethic to work hard on their weaknesses to become top notch players. Paul Licuria springs to mind. I hope Taylor Adams can do the same. I also look at a guy like Leigh Brown who was discarded after a lengthy period and became one of the key reasons we were premiers in 2010. Every flag side in history has had an unfashionable player or two who have played a role where needed. Therefore any of these guys could be that player.

[Neil Appleby]

These are the posts that bring me back to Nick's year after year. Intelligent, insightful and controversial 'Pies4Shaw.' I agree with your basic premise that many of these players won't be in our next premiership team. I'd go further and add Swan and probably Cloke to that list.

Assuming that a crack at a premiership is at least 3-4 years away, Cloke will be 32 or thereabouts. He may still be good enough then, but I doubt it. Swanny will definitely be well and truly gone. Pendles will be 31 but probably still demanding a game. May be a forward by then though.

Players you have undervalued:
Frost - In his second year after holding the backline together last year, he will be an experienced, tough shut-down defender in our next GF team.
Adams - will be our experienced, gutsy, Luke Ball-type onballer.

I suspect your evaluation of White and Fasolo are on the money. Both of these guys will play OK in a team that does the hard stuff for them; they are good finishers. They don't get the hard ball, they don't work hard enough and they like running onto the perfectly placed kick. I don't think Faz is as soft as White, but he's slower and just as poor at decision making.
Not sure on Sinkers, but you're probably right.

[Neil Appleby]

BTW, whilst you're in the mood for compiling lists, how about a list of Nick's Posters who won't be around come 2018-19 and beyond. That could be a lot of fun. BTW, where is colliedog?

[neil]

Certainly some players will disappear quickly as others take their place look at the 2010 season. Yes some like Armstrong are depth and few sides have the lists to excluded players because their depth is that strong.

Who of the kids takes the next step will be interesting and half way through the season we will find out.