ISIS
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HAL
Please don't shout at me - I can't help it.
Joined: 17 Mar 2003
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| Perhaps 50%. |
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Wokko 
Come and take it.
Joined: 04 Oct 2005
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swoop42 
Whatcha gonna do when he comes for you?
Joined: 02 Aug 2008
Location: The 18
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| David wrote: | | Is there anyone here who doesn't think that Abbott and co. are milking this supposed threat for all it's worth? |
I don't think there's any doubt about that and with US secretary of state John Kerry talking up the AFP raids you start to think this is all about the bigger picture of making a case for the "coalition of the willing" to take on ISIS and win over the public at the same time.
Still as long as the AFP raids were carried out due to real intelligence gathering that implied a genuine and realistic threat to Australian lives then I have no problem with it.
If these raids were conducted purely for political purposes then that's another matter entirely though realistically I think the worse case scenario is that the raids were brought forward to coincide with the current political environment but concerns about these certain individuals still did exist.
_________________
He's mad. He's bad. He's MaynHARD! |
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HAL
Please don't shout at me - I can't help it.
Joined: 17 Mar 2003
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| But can these raids were conducted for purposes ever happen? |
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Morrigu 
Joined: 11 Aug 2001
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| think positive wrote: | | David wrote: | | Is there anyone here who doesn't think that Abbott and co. are milking this supposed threat for all it's worth? |
I don't really give a ****, I'm just happy for the poor random that isn't getting his head chopped off with a rusty blunt knife |
Nah don't worry they bought a brand new shiny machete 
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“The greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the way its animals are treated.†|
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stui magpie 
Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.
Joined: 03 May 2005
Location: In flagrante delicto
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| David wrote: | | Is there anyone here who doesn't think that Abbott and co. are milking this supposed threat for all it's worth? |
The fact that they are milking it doesn't mean it's not real. Don't confuse the two, many people are.
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Every dead body on Mt Everest was once a highly motivated person, so maybe just calm the **** down. |
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Mugwump
Joined: 28 Jul 2007
Location: Between London and Melbourne
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Agreed, Stui. I have no love for Abbott, but his values and mine are next door neighbours compared to the filthy ideology of the Islamist extremists. If the charges are laid and proven true in court, then i hope I can send them a Queen's Birthday card at their penitential home for 25 years or more. And if Abbott milks it, well, that's just a slightly distasteful side effect.
I think we have become somewhat inured to terrorism by exposure, and thus inclined to forget how ultimately cynical and disgusting it is.
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Two more flags before I die! |
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pietillidie
Joined: 07 Jan 2005
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| Mugwump wrote: | Agreed, Stui. I have no love for Abbott, but his values and mine are next door neighbours compared to the filthy ideology of the Islamist extremists. If the charges are laid and proven true in court, then i hope I can send them a Queen's Birthday card at their penitential home for 25 years or more. And if Abbott milks it, well, that's just a slightly distasteful side effect.
I think we have become somewhat inured to terrorism by exposure, and thus inclined to forget how ultimately cynical and disgusting it is. |
Was the Iraq War, which Abbott also championed, just another of these "slightly distasteful" side effects?
People are infinitely more inured to the warmongering, propaganda and violent plunder of those they identify with. Infinitely more. So much more they are affected by a few YouTube videos and imagined, plausible terrors more than 150,000-600,00 deaths, 1-2 M refugees, and an unknowable amount of injury, deprivation and psychiatric damage.
How intelligent people in the postmodern period still can't step back and at least sense the magnitude of their own subjectivity, as challenging as doing that might be, is beyond me. It's very, very basic science. It might take maturity and a degree of self assuredness to accept just how irrational our impulses and visceral reactions are, but intellectually it's little more than high school science.
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In the end the rain comes down, washes clean the streets of a blue sky town.
Help Nick's: http://www.magpies.net/nick/bb/fundraising.htm |
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Mugwump
Joined: 28 Jul 2007
Location: Between London and Melbourne
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| pietillidie wrote: | | Mugwump wrote: | Agreed, Stui. I have no love for Abbott, but his values and mine are next door neighbours compared to the filthy ideology of the Islamist extremists. If the charges are laid and proven true in court, then i hope I can send them a Queen's Birthday card at their penitential home for 25 years or more. And if Abbott milks it, well, that's just a slightly distasteful side effect.
I think we have become somewhat inured to terrorism by exposure, and thus inclined to forget how ultimately cynical and disgusting it is. |
Was the Iraq War, which Abbott also championed, just another of these "slightly distasteful" side effects?
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There is a difference in kind between a war, however, misguided and erroneous, in which one side sought to avoid civilian casualties, and the beating, terrorising and beheading of an aid worker for their nationality. The latter is on the level of the extermination camp executioner, no more and no less.
Since all roads for you seem to lead back to the Iraq War, i can only note that, as a reading of the Guardian newspaper in 2003 woild show, there were many people of conscience who felt that the removal of the genocidal Saddam was justifiable and would prove to be in the long-term interests of the Iraqi people. They were wrong, and presumably they bear heavily in their conscience the damage caused to many innocents ; but there is a great difference between their ethics and those of IS.
The last point that you might consider is that it did not take US intervention to make unstable, despotic Arab states implode with sickening violence. Syria attests to that. The US invasion did precipitate Iraq's eruption, and it was reckless and wrong on many levels, but most of the killing in Iraq has been done by Al-Qaeda in Iraq (the holding company of IS), not by US forces. So subsequent events in Iraq clearly have a more complex dynamic than any simple anti-US interpretation.
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Two more flags before I die! |
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David 
I dare you to try
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda
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| Mugwump wrote: | | Since all roads for you seem to lead back to the Iraq War, i can only note that, as a reading of the Guardian newspaper in 2003 woild show, there were many people of conscience who felt that the removal of the genocidal Saddam was justifiable and would prove to be in the long-term interests of the Iraqi people. They were wrong, and presumably they bear heavily in their conscience the damage caused to many innocents ; but there is a great difference between their ethics and those of IS. |
Is there? What relevance is motivation here as opposed to consequences? If you want to talk about motivation, people like IS also think they're bringing light to the world. Surely the only viable way of measuring actions is consequences.
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All watched over by machines of loving grace |
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David
I dare you to try
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda
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| 1061 wrote: |
This thread would be monitored fact, like thousands or millions of other online discussions the bots would be searching for key words and who knows if one of us hasn't used one of those key words and red flagged Nicks. Doesn't concern me as all my other online activities I cannot see bringing me any grief from the law, do you have some concerns? |
Of course, this is a public forum. Now, how do you feel about your private emails, text messages, phone calls, internet browsing history being monitored? That's the real issue at hand here.
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All watched over by machines of loving grace |
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1061
Joined: 06 Sep 2013
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| David wrote: | | 1061 wrote: |
This thread would be monitored fact, like thousands or millions of other online discussions the bots would be searching for key words and who knows if one of us hasn't used one of those key words and red flagged Nicks. Doesn't concern me as all my other online activities I cannot see bringing me any grief from the law, do you have some concerns? |
Of course, this is a public forum. Now, how do you feel about your private emails, text messages, phone calls, internet browsing history being monitored? That's the real issue at hand here. |
As I said doesn't concern me, it's part of the world I live in and fighting it only red lights you more. |
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David
I dare you to try
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda
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If so, happy to be 'red lit'. Someone has to be—that is, of course, if you find the idea of an Orwellian State undesirable.
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All watched over by machines of loving grace |
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Mugwump
Joined: 28 Jul 2007
Location: Between London and Melbourne
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| David wrote: | | Mugwump wrote: | | Since all roads for you seem to lead back to the Iraq War, i can only note that, as a reading of the Guardian newspaper in 2003 woild show, there were many people of conscience who felt that the removal of the genocidal Saddam was justifiable and would prove to be in the long-term interests of the Iraqi people. They were wrong, and presumably they bear heavily in their conscience the damage caused to many innocents ; but there is a great difference between their ethics and those of IS. |
Is there? What relevance is motivation here as opposed to consequences? If you want to talk about motivation, people like IS also think they're bringing light to the world. Surely the only viable way of measuring actions is consequences. |
There are entire university courses devoted to this type of question, and I think it's simplistic to say that only consequences matter. I think most of us feel that the intent behind an action, the intrinsic good of the objective, and the reasonable likelihood of consequences are also important. We distinguish between manslaughter and murder because we consider intent important, not pure consequences (not arguing that that Iraq II was manslaughter, just using the concept to illustrate the point).
Lest that sound as though i supported Iraq 2, I didn't. Though i wavered several times, in the end as I felt it was a reckless act, and like many others i feared that the consequences might unfold as they did. However, it can also be an act of empathy to want people to be free from an oppressor like Hussein, and plenty of good people saw the issue that way.
The world is a complicated place, but the extermination camp torturer who thinks he's making the world a better place by killing untermenschen is not equal to those who use force to overthrow a tyrant, seek to minimise civilian casualties, then give people a vote, spend money on reconstruction and depart.
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Two more flags before I die! |
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AN_Inkling
Joined: 06 Oct 2007
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| Mugwump wrote: | However, it can also be an act of empathy to want people to be free from an oppressor like Hussein, and plenty of good people saw the issue that way.
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But do you think this was ever the intent of the willing? I think it was far more calculated and self-serving than that and given the consequences of the action it could very much be categorised as "evil" if we think that term has any meaning.
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Well done boys! |
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