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Chinese imperialism and future Australian sovereignty

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Tannin 

Can't remember


Joined: 06 Aug 2006
Location: Ballarat

PostPosted: Thu Dec 17, 2020 7:48 pm
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The sheer bloodyminded childishness of China is exposed here in this pitiful incident: https://www.theguardian.com/games/2020/dec/17/taiwanese-horror-game-pulled-from-sale-again-after-backlash-in-china
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pietillidie 



Joined: 07 Jan 2005


PostPosted: Thu Dec 17, 2020 7:58 pm
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stui magpie wrote:
Tannin wrote:
A new agreement is indeed required, PTID. However, it does not lie within our power to forge an "agreement" with China as things stand. All we can do is bend over and drop our trousers, or else not bend over.

China is the only country able to fix the problems. China started the trade war, China is escalating the trade war, all we can do is wait, meanwhile behaving in as civilised a manner as possible.

Point nailed, as per the article I posted this started with China, they want Australia to be an obedient little quarry and market garden, which means when they stamp their foot, we bend over, drop our pants and open our mouth. This trade bullshit is our punishment for not doing that. So be it

It's difficult to resolve things diplomatically when they won't respond to calls. Saying their actions is a response to Morrison calling for an inquiry is false. That's a red herring, this was going on before then and a significant number of countries signed up for an inquiry, which pissed China off even more.

They're the ones who are acting deranged, using their social media arms to insult us while Morrison and co are being quite restrained.

Basically, they've shown their cards, taken the mask off and shown the world their true face and I think they've seriously misjudged the mood in the room.

Trying to run the worlds largest dictatorship, strictly controlling all media access to the population internally, while allowing freedom of movement to other countries requires among other things, a massive amount of good will from the population, willing to trade prosperity for "freedom"

If their economy tanks and the rich people start taking a financial hit, the CCP leadership will start to sweat.

You seem to be under the impression that being outraged by something is the same thing as solving it in your favour. Surely you know that's not how it works; indeed, when it comes to complex challenges the opposite is true. Plenty of others are more concerned about the matter than you, but they're waiting for serious leadership and the serious strategy that accompanies it. Responsibility for making good decisions and all that.

Let Xi and his merry band carry on like Trump. Let him pursue the delusion of enforcing a police state on 1.4B people. As explained repeatedly, that's strategically in your favour because it will motivate a proper international alliance and strengthen Xi's liberal opponents.

On your 'plan', your prediction that the outcome of depriving a massive global trading partner (that is driven by a sense of historical grievance and jingoist nonsense and controlled by a fasco-nationalist political wing) of an essential economic good is what? Are you even 10% certain you are right? Have you spent more then ten minutes going over the pros and cons, risks and rewards?

If you bother to list up all the things that might happen in reality once this ingenious scheme gets underway, and all the utter morons and incompetents who will be at its forefront, and weigh up the risks involved properly, you might quickly come to a different conclusion.

Not every challenge can be dealt with today, like right now, even as you feel outrage. You've noticed some of the menaces perpetrated by Xi's China, and no one is questioning those observations, but you've then left everyone else to bear the weighty risks and unknown implications of a half-baked, reactionary idea.

Your existence, and that of most Australians, is not one of being 'shafted', 'forced to open your mouth', 'bent over', 'pantsed', or any other such metaphors that seem to animate you (I'd hate to be privy to your nightmares!). By framing it as such you're not only being shamelessly hypocritical after gladly pocketing enormous sums from the China-mining nexus for two long decades, but you're inciting yet more recklessness in an era where half-witted populists are guaranteed to turn every problem they touch into the worst nightmare imaginable.

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stui magpie Gemini

Oh, the Premiership's a cakewalk


Joined: 03 May 2005
Location: Escaping Danistan

PostPosted: Fri Dec 18, 2020 8:42 am
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I wish you could stop writing such rubbish all the time
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Pi Gemini



Joined: 13 Feb 2006
Location: SA

PostPosted: Sat Dec 19, 2020 8:46 am
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looks like the Chinese vaccine doesn't work that well

https://www.taiwannews.com.tw/en/news/4081311

but then the Chinese communist party's record for vaccine safety and effectiveness has never been all that good

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/asia_pacific/coronavirus-vaccine-china-bribery-sinovac/2020/12/04/7c09ae68-28c6-11eb-9c21-3cc501d0981f_story.html

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think positive Libra

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Joined: 30 Jun 2005
Location: somewhere

PostPosted: Sat Dec 19, 2020 9:32 am
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Tannin wrote:
The sheer bloodyminded childishness of China is exposed here in this pitiful incident: https://www.theguardian.com/games/2020/dec/17/taiwanese-horror-game-pulled-from-sale-again-after-backlash-in-china


reading yours, Stuis and Pi's posts just confirm it further - fuckchina (please note this is about the chinese communist party and not the people living in squalor in shitty villages because of their corrupt shitty government that does not care about human or animal rights, however, if they bit a head of a bat, it is about them- therefore dont give me another yellow dot, its not my colour - carry on!) and I am so proud of the government for standing up to them!

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stui magpie Gemini

Oh, the Premiership's a cakewalk


Joined: 03 May 2005
Location: Escaping Danistan

PostPosted: Sat Dec 19, 2020 2:21 pm
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Pi wrote:
looks like the Chinese vaccine doesn't work that well

https://www.taiwannews.com.tw/en/news/4081311

but then the Chinese communist party's record for vaccine safety and effectiveness has never been all that good

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/asia_pacific/coronavirus-vaccine-china-bribery-sinovac/2020/12/04/7c09ae68-28c6-11eb-9c21-3cc501d0981f_story.html


many developing nations may go with China's vaccine because it's offered to them cheap, here's hoping it doesn't be a 1-2 punch that causes even more pain.


Decent article on the ABC about why Australia is taking China to the WTO over their bans. Basically it forces China into formal discussion.

Quote:
In commencing a formal dispute, Australia also sends a firm but dignified message — that it is willing to use international rules and procedures to solve grievances.

WTO litigation is a normal feature of trade relations between countries. Even close allies bring disputes against one another — such as New Zealand's case against Australia’s restrictions on New Zealand apples, or Australia's case against Canadian restrictions on imported wines in liquor stores.

China and Australia badly need a relationship reset. Meeting in a rules-based forum with structured processes for dialogue can do no harm.


https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-12-18/taking-china-to-the-world-trade-organisation-plants-a-seed-win/12994560

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stui magpie Gemini

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 19, 2020 2:30 pm
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Another article showing how little they care for the environment or laws.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-12-19/how-china-is-plundering-the-worlds-oceans/12971422

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pietillidie 



Joined: 07 Jan 2005


PostPosted: Sat Dec 19, 2020 9:13 pm
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Here's a good example of how orders to censor information go out to the media:

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/12/19/technology/china-coronavirus-censorship.html

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pietillidie 



Joined: 07 Jan 2005


PostPosted: Sat Dec 19, 2020 10:06 pm
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think positive wrote:
Tannin wrote:
The sheer bloodyminded childishness of China is exposed here in this pitiful incident: https://www.theguardian.com/games/2020/dec/17/taiwanese-horror-game-pulled-from-sale-again-after-backlash-in-china


reading yours, Stuis and Pi's posts just confirm it further - fuckchina (please note this is about the chinese communist party and not the people living in squalor in shitty villages because of their corrupt shitty government that does not care about human or animal rights, however, if they bit a head of a bat, it is about them- therefore dont give me another yellow dot, its not my colour - carry on!) and I am so proud of the government for standing up to them!

Reasonable criticism shouldn't be mixed with wrongheaded or hypocritical criticism, though. China has lifted hundreds of millions of people out of poverty and transformed millions of 'shitty villages'. That's the last thing you should be criticising as China moves from dire poverty.

The corruption, authoritarianism, delay of human rights reforms, and so on, are all fair targets because Xi's government is now aggressively prioritising control over progress, and has slowed or reversed the latter. This is where critique should focus. Xi is not only oppressing people, he is also misdirecting resources and exciting dangerous flag-waving nutters in the process, so there is room for critique in this regard, too.

The racist/nationalist nonsense, bellicosity and bullying of neighbouring nations speaks for itself, but you'd want to be consistent here and highlight all countries and leaders doing the same thing to maintain credibility. Trump was a disaster in this regard because he gave Xi a huge bellicosity free kick.

The environmental critique is complex, because barely any country on earth has done any better, and most continue even in great wealth and knowledge to wantonly wreck the environment. So again, consistency of critique is required here. If people deal with all modern development failures across all countries fairly, then fine. But singling out China when other nations from the industrial revolution forward have done no better or even worse, is unfair.

Also, if people want to move beyond mindless fist waving, they should use #FXi rather than #FChina. You want to isolate and expose Xi and his fasco-nationalist wing, not offside the average Chinese bloke. You can't get rid of China, and indeed only a psychopath would think along the lines of another world war. There are liberal factions within China and liberal paths forward for the country, and your future security lies in strengthening these not insulting 1.4B people you've never met, turning them into permanent enemies.

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Tannin 

Can't remember


Joined: 06 Aug 2006
Location: Ballarat

PostPosted: Sun Dec 20, 2020 6:31 am
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pietillidie wrote:


Reasonable criticism shouldn't be mixed with wrongheaded or hypocritical criticism, though. China has lifted hundreds of millions of people out of poverty and transformed millions of 'shitty villages'. That's the last thing you should be criticising as China moves from dire poverty.


Quite so. Many people rush to slag off China in a mindlessly Trumpian way. There is plenty wrong with China (as you say) and no-one needs to make stuff up or be hypocritical. Just tell the truth.

pietillidie wrote:

Tannin wrote:
The sheer bloodyminded childishness of China is exposed here in this pitiful incident: https://www.theguardian.com/games/2020/dec/17/taiwanese-horror-game-pulled-from-sale-again-after-backlash-in-china



The environmental critique is complex, because barely any country on earth has done any better, and most continue even in great wealth and knowledge to wantonly wreck the environment. So again, consistency of critique is required here.


You didn't read the article. Either that or you didn't understand it. When it comes to the oceans, China is the worst in the world. By far. It is one thing to wreck your own country. Destroying ocean life wrecks it for every country in the world.

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think positive Libra

Side By Side


Joined: 30 Jun 2005
Location: somewhere

PostPosted: Sun Dec 20, 2020 1:35 pm
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stui magpie wrote:
Another article showing how little they care for the environment or laws.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-12-19/how-china-is-plundering-the-worlds-oceans/12971422

scum
of
the
earth
and
sea

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think positive Libra

Side By Side


Joined: 30 Jun 2005
Location: somewhere

PostPosted: Sun Dec 20, 2020 1:37 pm
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pietillidie wrote:
think positive wrote:
Tannin wrote:
The sheer bloodyminded childishness of China is exposed here in this pitiful incident: https://www.theguardian.com/games/2020/dec/17/taiwanese-horror-game-pulled-from-sale-again-after-backlash-in-china


reading yours, Stuis and Pi's posts just confirm it further - fuckchina (please note this is about the chinese communist party and not the people living in squalor in shitty villages because of their corrupt shitty government that does not care about human or animal rights, however, if they bit a head of a bat, it is about them- therefore dont give me another yellow dot, its not my colour - carry on!) and I am so proud of the government for standing up to them!

Reasonable criticism shouldn't be mixed with wrongheaded or hypocritical criticism, though. China has lifted hundreds of millions of people out of poverty and transformed millions of 'shitty villages'. That's the last thing you should be criticising as China moves from dire poverty.

The corruption, authoritarianism, delay of human rights reforms, and so on, are all fair targets because Xi's government is now aggressively prioritising control over progress, and has slowed or reversed the latter. This is where critique should focus. Xi is not only oppressing people, he is also misdirecting resources and exciting dangerous flag-waving nutters in the process, so there is room for critique in this regard, too.

The racist/nationalist nonsense, bellicosity and bullying of neighbouring nations speaks for itself, but you'd want to be consistent here and highlight all countries and leaders doing the same thing to maintain credibility. Trump was a disaster in this regard because he gave Xi a huge bellicosity free kick.

The environmental critique is complex, because barely any country on earth has done any better, and most continue even in great wealth and knowledge to wantonly wreck the environment. So again, consistency of critique is required here. If people deal with all modern development failures across all countries fairly, then fine. But singling out China when other nations from the industrial revolution forward have done no better or even worse, is unfair.

Also, if people want to move beyond mindless fist waving, they should use #FXi rather than #FChina. You want to isolate and expose Xi and his fasco-nationalist wing, not offside the average Chinese bloke. You can't get rid of China, and indeed only a psychopath would think along the lines of another world war. There are liberal factions within China and liberal paths forward for the country, and your future security lies in strengthening these not insulting 1.4B people you've never met, turning them into permanent enemies.


if they are biting heads of of bats, or any of the other proven monstrosities against animals, those villages still have a long wat to go away from shitty

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pietillidie 



Joined: 07 Jan 2005


PostPosted: Mon Dec 21, 2020 7:12 am
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China's rebel historians:
https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2021/01/chinas-rebel-historians/617265/

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watt price tully Scorpio



Joined: 15 May 2007


PostPosted: Mon Dec 21, 2020 10:51 am
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Hackers reveal Chinese Government cover up / censorship re Coronavirus in January this year:

https://m.jpost.com/international/hackers-leak-documents-revealing-chinas-coronavirus-censorship-652693

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stui magpie Gemini

Oh, the Premiership's a cakewalk


Joined: 03 May 2005
Location: Escaping Danistan

PostPosted: Mon Dec 21, 2020 5:43 pm
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Bothe above interesting articles.

Here's another with a reading list which includes reference to Ptiddy's post.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-12-20/china-power-so-much-we-dont-know-read-these-books/12998446

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