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David 
I dare you to try
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda
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| slangman wrote: | Unless you have been to war you will never understand. Easy to sit behind the safety created by others making moral judgments about their conduct in situations that you pray you never have to witness or experience.
Btw, I’m not defending BRS but I do recognise that he has never been court martialed, but your moral virtue signaling regarding a situation that you have never experienced is short sighted and lacking in reality. |
I don't know what your precise military record is, but it seems telling that we hear this kind of thing a lot from keyboard warriors. Yet in all the testimony I read from the Roberts-Smith case, I don't recall one SAS member who testified against him standing up and saying, "Yes, it was a nasty business your honour, but that's war – you wouldn't understand." These are people who actually would be in a position to say that, but they recognised that what they saw was outrageous and morally wrong and testified accordingly.
It's a shame that the rights and wrongs of this seem to be so much cloudier for so many people here at home. That reflects poorly on our culture, frankly.
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All watched over by machines of loving grace |
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swoop42 
Whatcha gonna do when he comes for you?
Joined: 02 Aug 2008
Location: The 18
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A soldier that kills under the rules of engagement is different to a soldier that murders without justification.
BRS didn't have a licence to kill under any circumstance he deemed fit and the decision of his fellow SAS members to break the code of silence and provide testimony against him is all the proof you really need on the matter.
Those men are the ones who should be celebrated for their courage and integrity in war.
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slangman
Joined: 11 Aug 2003
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| swoop42 wrote: | | a soldier that murders without justification. |
Those soldiers get court-martialled.
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David
I dare you to try
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda
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So the question should be: why didn’t that happen here? Can we trust the army to police itself? In this case, the answer clearly seems to be no.
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All watched over by machines of loving grace |
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stui magpie 
Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.
Joined: 03 May 2005
Location: In flagrante delicto
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"Clearly" is a massive over reach. The Armed services have always policed themselves, with whole areas set up to do it.
The MP's likely didn't investigate because no complaints were made, it fell to the media and we wouldn't be here if BRS hadn't lodged defamation proceedings against them.
There's still been no criminal trial let alone conviction so trying to argue that the Military shouldn't police itself is a very long bow.
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Every dead body on Mt Everest was once a highly motivated person, so maybe just calm the **** down. |
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slangman
Joined: 11 Aug 2003
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| David wrote: | | So the question should be: why didn’t that happen here? Can we trust the army to police itself? In this case, the answer clearly seems to be no. |
Your whole argument is based on the comments of a judge in a defamation case in a CIVIL trial.
You have decided that he is guilty in much the same manner in which you are accusing BRS of acting, deciding that someone is guilty without verified evidence.
Not every member of the unit agreed with the accusers version of events so jumping to a guilty verdict so quickly without a proper criminal/ court-martiall judicial process highlights your predetermined opinion on the matter.
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watt price tully 
Joined: 15 May 2007
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| David wrote: | | So the question should be: why didn’t that happen here? Can we trust the army to police itself? In this case, the answer clearly seems to be no. |
Much more to follow here. Those citing a civil trial are deluding themselves. This isn’t hearsay. Two of Australia’s leading investigative journalists, a judge, witnesses, etc. The perpetrator found lying, threatening witnesses let alone his ex. Much more to follow here. It seems a few still support a noted liar and murderer 🤦♂️
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“I even went as far as becoming a Southern Baptist until I realised they didn’t keep ‘em under long enough” Kinky Friedman |
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slangman
Joined: 11 Aug 2003
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Your hypocrisy is staggering.
On one hand your argument is that BRS didn’t follow proper procedure to ascertain the guilt of the Afghan person, but you’re more than happy to throw proper procedure out the window with the murder accusation against BRS to suit your narrative.
You can’t have it both ways.
Until there is a proper criminal trial, I won’t be jumping to accuse BRS as being a murderer.
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Skids 
Quitting drinking will be one of the best choices you make in your life.
Joined: 11 Sep 2007
Location: Joined 3/6/02 . Member #175
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Were any Victorian cops charged with attempted murder or attempted manslaughter after the countless attacks on innocent people I saw during the covid lockdown lunacy?
I know it's off topic a bit, but serious question. That guy thrown down at the train station could have quite easily been killed.
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Don't count the days, make the days count. |
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think positive
Side By Side
Joined: 30 Jun 2005
Location: somewhere
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| stui magpie wrote: | "Clearly" is a massive over reach. The Armed services have always policed themselves, with whole areas set up to do it.
The MP's likely didn't investigate because no complaints were made, it fell to the media and we wouldn't be here if BRS hadn't lodged defamation proceedings against them.
There's still been no criminal trial let alone conviction so trying to argue that the Military shouldn't police itself is a very long bow. |
The use of the word ‘clearly’ clearly shows the posters bias!
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You cant fix stupid, turns out you cant quarantine it either! |
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think positive
Side By Side
Joined: 30 Jun 2005
Location: somewhere
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| Skids wrote: | Were any Victorian cops charged with attempted murder or attempted manslaughter after the countless attacks on innocent people I saw during the covid lockdown lunacy?
I know it's off topic a bit, but serious question. That guy thrown down at the train station could have quite easily been killed. |
Yes that cop was disciplined, he made the covid squads job a lot harder.
However none of the ‘innocent people’ who threw steel taps and glass bottles etc at the big mean nasty cops trying to stop them getting or spreading a potentially deadly disease to the vulnerable members of our society, (big mean, ie my 5’4 60kg sister) were appropriately punished, if at all. I’ve seen the behind the scenes footage. And we all saw the pricks on the Westgate terrorising everyday people trapped in their cars.
She was up til 2am the night before strategising what they knew was coming, to corral the ‘innocents’ safely, back at it at 5am, and they pulled it off to perfection, regardless of the missiles tossed their way. I did not sleep that night, and I pretty much cried all day, til I got the text around 4 or 5pm that she was indeed safe.
There is a difference between protest and antagonistic disruption.
As with society, the vast majority of armed forces and police do indeed have integrity, but there is bad apples in every barrel.
Only a fool throws the whole barrel full away.
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You cant fix stupid, turns out you cant quarantine it either! |
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stui magpie
Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.
Joined: 03 May 2005
Location: In flagrante delicto
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Back to BRS, what jurisdiction would have the authority to actually try to prosocute criminal charges, if they wanted to?
Is it the Federal Police or that Special Investigator office that Morrision set up or is it the Department of Defence themselves?
He can't be courtmartialed as he's no longer a serving member of the ADF, can he?
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Every dead body on Mt Everest was once a highly motivated person, so maybe just calm the **** down. |
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think positive
Side By Side
Joined: 30 Jun 2005
Location: somewhere
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Ssshhhhh I’ve seen that movie!
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You cant fix stupid, turns out you cant quarantine it either! |
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pietillidie
Joined: 07 Jan 2005
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With this type of thing you need to hold two perspectives at once. First, you've got the genuine need for defence, which is responsible risk management. Then, that inevitably involves persuading a mix of people, some dedicated and some without better options, into signing up to do a thankless and periodically deadly task.
At the same time, you've also got the natural creepiness of isolated, opaque, authoritarian organisations. You need them, but they will always attract their share of crazies and deviants, and create a good number more.
So, there is a need for both support and distrust at the same time. It's just how it is with some things in life.
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In the end the rain comes down, washes clean the streets of a blue sky town.
Help Nick's: http://www.magpies.net/nick/bb/fundraising.htm |
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David
I dare you to try
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda
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| stui magpie wrote: | "Clearly" is a massive over reach. The Armed services have always policed themselves, with whole areas set up to do it.
The MP's likely didn't investigate because no complaints were made, it fell to the media and we wouldn't be here if BRS hadn't lodged defamation proceedings against them.
There's still been no criminal trial let alone conviction so trying to argue that the Military shouldn't police itself is a very long bow. |
I said "in this case". The facts of the matter, so far as we can determine, is that a lot of bad shit went down in BRS’ unit, and nothing was done about it until a dossier was leaked by army vet David McBride (a genuine hero, by the way, who is still facing criminal charges himself for the crime of revealing wrongdoing to the public, after he had no success bringing a complaint internally). That led to the Brereton Report, which in turn led to media reportage about BRS committing war crimes, which led to his defamation proceedings against the newspapers. Any internal army disciplinary proceedings seem to have been absent throughout that entire process, and one gets the sense that the entire thing would have been covered up if it hadn’t been for whistleblowers.
https://www.theage.com.au/national/if-moral-courage-matters-this-whistleblower-needs-defending-20201116-p56ey4.html
So when I say "clearly", I mean it. Whatever formal justice process there is didn’t work in this case. And so far the only person facing criminal charges is the guy who spoke up. That’s a systemic failure on every level.
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