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watt price tully 
Joined: 15 May 2007
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| David wrote: | | stui magpie wrote: | | David wrote: | | What did he get wrong? I think he's absolutely right about the untouchability of soldiers and the myths that have served to excuse brutality. Indeed, that's one of the precise reasons I wrote what I did on the first page of this thread a decade ago, before any of us (including me) had any idea about the kind of person Roberts-Smith was. It's the glorification of soldiers that's the problem. |
No, you have the same problem with the Police. Soldiers aren't glorified or untouchable, most get far less credit or plaudits than they deserve.
One bloke going rogue should not taint the others who, as WPT said, do a bloody hard job. A job that requires them to risk their own life and routinely take others. Just to be able to do that requires a serious emotional switch. This is a judgement on one man, not the entire armed services. |
Respect isn’t the same thing as glorification. I advocate respect, and I also want to see the mythology torn down.
I completely agree with the rest of your post, but the pedestal these guys are put on did ultimately make it much harder to take BRS down (look at the forces he had in his court, from media to politicians). I commend his fellow armed service members who bravely spoke up against him, though what they said was also a reminder that the rot goes far deeper than one rogue actor – it’s inherent in the culture of silence and fear, following superiors’ orders blindly and disregard for human life.
That’s the culture that elevated Roberts-Smith and enabled him to act in the way that he did. Nobody reading the testimony here could have any doubt that there were serious structural issues at play. |
Agreed David. I actually think you and Stui are on the same page.
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“I even went as far as becoming a Southern Baptist until I realised they didn’t keep ‘em under long enough” Kinky Friedman |
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Pies4shaw 
pies4shaw
Joined: 08 Oct 2007
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Sadly, though, it might not be quite so isolated as we would wish:
https://www.aph.gov.au/About_Parliament/Parliamentary_Departments/Parliamentary_Library/pubs/BriefingBook47p/BreretonReport
| Quote: | The Brereton Report states that credible information existed of 23 incidents in which one or more non-combatants were unlawfully killed by or at the direction of Australian Special Forces, which may constitute the war crime of murder. There was also credible information of a further 2 incidents where a non-combatant was mistreated in a way that may constitute the war crime of cruel treatment (pp. 28–29). The report found credible information that during these alleged incidents, a total of 39 individuals were killed and a further 2 individuals were treated cruelly. In total, 25 current or former ADF personnel were identified as alleged perpetrators- either as principals or accessories (p. 29).
The Brereton Report states that these acts were not ‘incidents of disputable decisions made under pressure in the heat of battle’ (p. 29). Rather, they were situations ‘in which it was or should have been plain that the person killed was a non-combatant, or hors-de-combat’ (p. 29). If an individual is hors-de-combat this means that they are in the power of an adverse party, they have clearly expressed an intention to surrender or they are defenceless because, for example, they are unconscious or incapacitated. Attacking an individual who is hors-de-combat is prohibited under IHL and they must be treated humanely.
The Brereton Report also found that there is credible information that some members of the ADF placed weapons with the body of an ‘enemy killed in action’. This was done ‘in order to portray that the person killed had been carrying the weapon or other military equipment when engaged and was a legitimate target’ (p. 29).
The Brereton Report recommended that the Chief of the Defence Force refer 36 matters comprising 23 incidents and 19 individuals to the Australian Federal Police (AFP) for criminal investigation (p. 40). These 19 individuals could face prosecution for war crimes in Australia under the Criminal Code Act 1995 (Cth) Division 268. These crimes could also potentially be prosecuted at the ICC as Australia is a state party to the Rome Statute.
The Brereton Report also recommended that ‘consideration be given to administrative action for some serving [ADF] members, where there is credible information of misconduct which either does not meet the threshold for referral for criminal investigation, or is insufficiently grave for referral, but should have some consequence’ (p. 41). The Brereton Report also made recommendations to address the broader reasons behind the findings of potential war crimes such as ‘strategic, operational, structural, training and cultural factors’ that contributed to the alleged crimes indirectly (p. 41). |
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David 
I dare you to try
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda
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^ Yes, I was thinking of that too. And even less consequential stories like the Australian unit driving around the Afghan desert with a Nazi flag on their vehicle. There’s a pretty dark undercurrent revealed in these reports that I think undercuts the narrative of Roberts-Smith just being a bad apple. There are clearly people with strong principles and admirable character in the army; whether they’re in the majority or the ones shaping military culture is not so clear to me.
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All watched over by machines of loving grace |
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David
I dare you to try
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda
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| think positive wrote: | | I don’t believe you respect authority at all |
Do you?
For those who do, I’d actually be curious to know why.
People are in power to various extents in different realms of society. Ben Roberts-Smith was one of them: he had power over the lives of Afghan civilians in his neck of the woods, because he was a big man with a gun and a checkpoint. He was also in a position of power within his unit, and his fellow soldiers were afraid of him and what he might do to them if they crossed him. Is that the kind of authority we should respect?
One can reasonably argue that power and authority are necessary in any society, on many levels. When you’re a child, you have parents and teachers, and then later you have bosses and maybe sports coaches. All the while, you have a government, and judges, and police. How do you respond to that authority? Do you trust it? Do you believe that the position justifies whichever actions flow from it? Or do you need to preserve some capacity for independent thinking, criticism and doubt when needed, and even willingness to resist?
I’m guessing most (though certainly not all) people would say "yes" to the latter. So how does that square with "respecting" authority?
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All watched over by machines of loving grace |
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think positive
Side By Side
Joined: 30 Jun 2005
Location: somewhere
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You’re twisting it. I have respect for the vast majority of cops and armed forces that do the right thing.
As I respected teachers coaches and even umpires that deserve my respect.
I see the good and the positives, you seem to think everyone in authority is out to get you or what ever they can get. I actually believe the majority want to save/hellp people
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You cant fix stupid, turns out you cant quarantine it either! |
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David
I dare you to try
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda
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We’re in furious agreement, then! My respect isn’t unconditional either, but I do believe that most people mean well most of the time.
I do believe power can have a corrupting effect on the psyche, but I’m not paranoid enough to think authorities are "out to get me". That’s not even remotely the case. I do think authority figures need checks and balances to keep them honest, though, as we all would – nobody is immune from making self-serving decisions.
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All watched over by machines of loving grace |
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watt price tully
Joined: 15 May 2007
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https://www.crikey.com.au/2023/06/02/ben-roberts-smith-war-crimes-anzac/
I hope now we can stop the overly gratuitous and overly nationalistic Anzac Day mythology. Sure have the solemn day with recognition but not the jingoistic / nationalist crap that goes with it and it’s particularly unAustralian.
Ben Roberts Smith narcissism funded by the arrogance of the wealthy elites indeed being found to be a lying murderer on the balance of probabilities, may have done us all a favour.
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“I even went as far as becoming a Southern Baptist until I realised they didn’t keep ‘em under long enough” Kinky Friedman |
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think positive
Side By Side
Joined: 30 Jun 2005
Location: somewhere
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God bless America!
I fuck8ng love the pomp and ceremony at every sporting event big or small!
Memorial Day at Charlotte raceway is something I will never forget!
Celebrate, remember, give thanks, to the vast majority that deserve it, or be miserable insincere apologetic bastard!
Ifucking love Anzac day at the G, it’s magnificent and respectful.
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You cant fix stupid, turns out you cant quarantine it either! |
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stui magpie 
Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.
Joined: 03 May 2005
Location: In flagrante delicto
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^
The USA is a mess of contradictions though, as you likely would have seen.
While they make a big deal about memorial day and all sorts of hoo hah over serving military, everywhere you go you find homeless and often disabled veterans begging for money.
_________________
Every dead body on Mt Everest was once a highly motivated person, so maybe just calm the **** down. |
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David
I dare you to try
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda
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Yep, and I think that says something about whom all this jingoism is for and whom it benefits. It certainly isn’t those who’ve served.
| watt price tully wrote: | | https://www.crikey.com.au/2023/06/02/ben-roberts-smith-war-crimes-anzac/ |
Great and sobering piece. Everyone should read it.
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All watched over by machines of loving grace |
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roar
Joined: 01 Sep 2004
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| think positive wrote: | | I don’t believe you respect authority at all |
Not even Eric Cartman?
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kill for collingwood! |
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stui magpie
Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.
Joined: 03 May 2005
Location: In flagrante delicto
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^
That may be the exception. 
_________________
Every dead body on Mt Everest was once a highly motivated person, so maybe just calm the **** down. |
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stui magpie
Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.
Joined: 03 May 2005
Location: In flagrante delicto
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| David wrote: | Yep, and I think that says something about whom all this jingoism is for and whom it benefits. It certainly isn’t those who’ve served.
| watt price tully wrote: | | https://www.crikey.com.au/2023/06/02/ben-roberts-smith-war-crimes-anzac/ |
Great and sobering piece. Everyone should read it. |
Paywalled.
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Every dead body on Mt Everest was once a highly motivated person, so maybe just calm the **** down. |
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slangman
Joined: 11 Aug 2003
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“We sleep safely at night because rough men stand ready to visit violence on those who would harm us.” - Winston Churchill
Be careful about passing judgment on actions during war from the comfort of your lounge room.
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- Side By Side - |
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David
I dare you to try
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda
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Does "be careful" mean pass judgement after careful consideration, or squib it entirely?
Some of us are happy for wars to be carried out in their name but get squeamish and defensive if they have to look too closely at how the sausage is made. Others of us have moral principles and don’t see foreigners as scum to be exterminated at will every time a "rough man" wants to blow off a bit of steam. #&$% him and anyone who is an apologist for him.
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All watched over by machines of loving grace |
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