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jack_spain 
Joined: 03 May 2008
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Well, here we go again.
Why should the other AFL teams bother to even turn up for the draft and trade week?
Just let the GC and WS cherry pick the best players.
The other thing. These new teams don't pay any license fees and get all the concessions which the other "new" teams didn't get when they joined:
West Coast, Adelaide, Brisbane Bears, Freo and Port all paid millions of dollars to the AFL and got very few concessions.
I reckon it's about time those teams led the coup at AFL HQ.
If this doesn't sink The Fat Man, then the current lot of AFL clubs are just sucks and deserve being screwed. 
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jack_spain
Joined: 03 May 2008
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| member34259 wrote: | Bigger media rights. Bigger audiences. Bigger supporter base.
I hate how it has to be done, but I see that it must be done. |
Rubbish. Sydneysiders don't go to sports events Member.
They'd rather sail on the harbour than go to some windswept Olympic Stadium to watch manufactured clubs going around.
As far as ratings are concerned I won't be bothered watching the GC and WS unless we're playing them.
The AFL seem to have forgotten one thing - the ethnic mix of Western Sydney. The Polynesians support rugby, most of the others support soccer. Are there enough "Skips" to support an AFL club?
| member34259 wrote: |
Ah, the same argument was used when the WA teams came in, and the SA teams, and the relocation of Sydney and the merger of the Lions.
After all those things our competition is stronger and attracting more people to games and to TV broadcasts.
The game will prosper. |
No, WA and SA are like Tasmania footy states. Sydney Swans can't get enough members to survive. Only 100s of millions of AFL dollars will enable a club in WS to exist.
And guess where that money comes from? That's right the other 16 clubs.
It's time the existing clubs took back control of the AFL Commission. It no longer represents the clubs' interests.
Soccer's looking better all the time. 
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favourites 2008
The Machine
Joined: 11 Aug 2003
Location: Mooroolbark
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Jack you have to look forward, I've had this discussion with so many other people. It's not about how many members they have next year or the next year, it's about how many members they will have in 2025.
Western Sydney may have 0 supporters of AFL and what they are trying to do is convert those people in to AFL supporters.
Will it work?? who knows, but if you don't try it def won't work.
What will bringing a team in Tassie do? Most of them already support AFL, and therefore the chance of gaining more money from them is minimal.
It's about creating a culture within the community in the hope that the kids will embrace it and then pass that onto their kids and so on and so fourth. It only takes 10-20 schools to really promote the team and get people interested in footy and then it will blossum from there.
It's something I'm not totally for, but at the same time, if I was in charge I would be doing exactly as Vlad is and exploring the greatest chance to grow the game.
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jack_spain
Joined: 03 May 2008
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^ I understand that argument, but I still think its bollocks.
It has taken more than a century to build the culture of our game. In seeking to build new enclaves for that culture has anyone thought about what will happen to the game if you disenfranchise the "old rusted-on supporters"?
There's a growing cynicism about our game now that I've never known in our lifetime. It is fast turning into a TV sport. The kids are off playing soccer or basketball. Grassroots footy (especially in the country) is on its last legs.
What will happen to our game when the AFL spends so much money at the elite end and completely neglects the grassroots? It's so bad now clubs have to look overseas for recruits. 
And the ethnicity of Australia is changing so dramatically the "Skips" will soon be in the minority in this country (a bit like Fiji actually  ).
Soccer is the only football code with a reasonable chance of growth over the longer term. They will get an enormous boost if we get through to the second round of the World Cup finals next year.
Rugby Union is on the way down now (the Wallabies can't win a cracker and I see their decline as terminal for the sport - Union exists as a national team and nothing else in the public imagination). The NRL will die next. Realistically only footy and soccer will be left to fight the turf wars in the next 30 years. And demographics is on soccer's side.
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didaksrightfoot
Joined: 22 Sep 2007
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C'mon people - stop crying about it.
Yes the AFL is giving them draft concessions and salary concessions... because unlike the WCE or Crows they will not be able to rely on regional players... and looking at the other interstate clubs (Freo has been a shambles since its inception, the Bears were a shambles for a decade until everything fell into place spectacularly, the Swans struggled for two decades after being moved, and Port did well because it already had a huge base to start from).
A couple of notes about all these draft picks:
1. I think up to half of them will be used as trade chips... and with the abundance of picks on offer, opposition teams will be asking for a lot in return for their players.
2. Lets actually look at what they would be getting if they keep all their picks from the 2 concession drafts.
These are all the first round players from the 2004/2005 drafts (I chose that because I think 4-5 years is gonna be the peak of the results we will see from the draft concessions - prior to this the lists will be too young, and after this things would have balanced out).
Before you look at the list, yes - there is plenty of talent there. But remember that this is all they get (plus the rookie drafts, which will have less and less talent in it as the talent pool gets spread out and more players get taken in the NAB draft)... so I would expect that the 2nd half of their lists will be made up mostly of 'scraps' (for want of a better word - but generally players that although could turn out, are not normally valuable enough to warrant a spot on a squad).
Brett Deledio - 106 games
Jarryd Roughead - 102
Lance Franklin - 102
Jordan Lewis - 102
Ryan Griffen - 97
Richard Tambling - 95
Angus Monfries - 93
Dale Thomas - 85
Grant Birchall - 84
Marc Murphy - 80
Scott Pendlebury - 76
Paddy Ryder - 73
Jordan Russell - 70
Nathan Jones - 70
Matthew Bate - 68
Adam Pattison - 61
Andrew McQualter - 59
Shannon Hurn - 58
Travis Varcoe - 56
Richard Douglas - 56
Lynden Dunn - 52
Shaun Higgins - 52
Xavier Ellis - 47
Mitch Clark - 46
Josh Kennedy - 45
Cameron Wood - 42
Tom Williams - 33
Adam Thomson - 30
Courtenay Dempsey - 30
Chris Egan - 25
Marcus Drum - 21
Danny Meyer - 20
Beau Dowler - 16
Jarrad Oakley-Nicholls - 13
Darren Pfeiffer - 7
John Meesen - 6
Max Bailey - 6
Ryan Willits - 3
Of those 38 players I reckon there are 3 legit/future stars (Murphy, Franklin, Pendles), 15 - 20 guys who would walk onto most lists, and 15-20 guys who would struggle to find themselves on top 8 squads... and consider that a number of the guys in the middle group only racked up those game totals because they have played on poor teams and would struggle to get games if they played on teams in the top 4-8.
Divide that into 2 teams and add all the unwanted pre-season draft players and youve got two teams that will make the 8 but will by no means dominate the league.
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Yes this probably a meaningless list in the liklihood that many of those draft picks get traded... but that just comes down to how other teams value those picks. And Im sorry but if teams continue to overvalue picks like they have been (although this year was much better for that), despite the knowledge that two teams hold 10 of them each, then I think they get what they deserve.
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As for the financial and list incentives, it really only makes a difference if the league suddenly allows free agency ... which (although I want it) would only be fair to hold off until those incentives are done.
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Black_White 
Joined: 19 Mar 2001
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| jack_spain wrote: |
Rubbish. Sydneysiders don't go to sports events Member.
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Not all about bums on seats in this case Jack. 22 more games per year for media rights money. A 10 team finals system, for more media rights money. And the long term possibility of youngsters turning to our game in the most populated state in australia.
| Quote: | | The AFL seem to have forgotten one thing - the ethnic mix of Western Sydney. The Polynesians support rugby, most of the others support soccer. Are there enough "Skips" to support an AFL club? |
And you seem to forget the rich talent that ethnics groups have contributed to our great game. Kouta? Silvangi (x2). Hell, even a fellow named Daicos, who bought his soccer skills to the game.
AFL is not exclusively "skips". Nor should it be.
| Quote: | | And guess where that money comes from? That's right the other 16 clubs. |
No, it comes from the expanded marketing and media opportunities.
| Quote: | | It's time the existing clubs took back control of the AFL Commission. It no longer represents the clubs' interests. |
I remember when there was no commision. If that had continued there would be no elite level, national Australian Rules Competition today. It would be a very second rate, broke state specific game.
The commision does what it feels best for the game, not the clubs. If the clubs ran the game it would descend into farce within 12 months.
| Quote: | | Soccer's looking better all the time. |
And that' the very reason that the AFL is attempting to increase the profile and range of the game.
You have a very short-sighted view Jack.
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jack_spain
Joined: 03 May 2008
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spoljar 
Joined: 16 Mar 2004
Location: Lynbrook
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| jack_spain wrote: | | If this doesn't sink The Fat Man, then the current lot of AFL clubs are just sucks and deserve being screwed. |
You'll find Jack, that when its all said and done, the Club Presidents (Eddie Included) are just puppets of the AFL. The response from them regarding these concessions, has actually been timid at best, but mostly, the silence has been deafening.
Clubs/Presidents which ever angle you want to look at, pick their fights very very carefully and in the end, most of their fights go up in a small puff of smoke.
However, as I stated previously, watch the outcry from the first president that watches his team get beaten by either of the two new teams.
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fence-banger
Zito Kypro
Joined: 14 Feb 2008
Location: northcote
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I haven't got anything to add, but this Thread, the arguments being put forth, are really good. It shows I think, that it isn't a straightforward topic, but it sure is one we're worried about.
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MagpieMad 
One in, All in!!
Joined: 15 Jan 2001
Location: -37.798563,144.996641
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| jack_spain wrote: | Grassroots footy (especially in the country) is on its last legs.
What will happen to our game when the AFL spends so much money at the elite end and completely neglects the grassroots? It's so bad now clubs have to look overseas for recruits. |
you base this on what?
| jack_spain wrote: |
Rugby Union is on the way down now (the Wallabies can't win a cracker and I see their decline as terminal for the sport - Union exists as a national team and nothing else in the public imagination). The NRL will die next. Realistically only footy and soccer will be left to fight the turf wars in the next 30 years. And demographics is on soccer's side. |
so you would roll over and let soccer take it all?
rugby league parents are looking for other sports for their kids to play, the Polynesians are big kids and earlier this year there was talk about setting up a separate class of junior game as parents are worried about their kids playing against the larger polynesian kids.
I am no advocate for expansion and all the concessions that new clubs will receive, I love our game and can see the need for the expansion to grow and secure the future of our game, as a parent I can also see the need to offer as many sports to our children as possible, especially team sports.
The sydney swans have never gained a great deal of support as what self respecting man would barrack for a team called the swans? really, standing at the ground shouting at the top of their lungs "go swannies"??? why not just put on a dress and head of to the ballet!
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Pain heals, Chicks dig scars, Glory..... lasts forever! |
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HAL
Please don't shout at me - I can't help it.
Joined: 17 Mar 2003
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| Im not saying you are. . . .
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Piesnchess
piesnchess
Joined: 09 Jun 2008
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^ Maybe the AFL should form a team of robots eh Hal. ?
_________________
Poverty exists not because we cannot feed the poor, but because we cannot satisfy the rich.
Chess and Vodka are born brothers. - Russian proverb. |
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HAL
Please don't shout at me - I can't help it.
Joined: 17 Mar 2003
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| Are you Canadian? What if it didn't happen?
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jack_spain
Joined: 03 May 2008
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| MagpieMad wrote: | | jack_spain wrote: | Grassroots footy (especially in the country) is on its last legs.
What will happen to our game when the AFL spends so much money at the elite end and completely neglects the grassroots? It's so bad now clubs have to look overseas for recruits. |
you base this on what?
Ask anyone involved in country footy and they'll tell you it's hard to find enough players to make up teams anymore.
| jack_spain wrote: |
Rugby Union is on the way down now (the Wallabies can't win a cracker and I see their decline as terminal for the sport - Union exists as a national team and nothing else in the public imagination). The NRL will die next. Realistically only footy and soccer will be left to fight the turf wars in the next 30 years. And demographics is on soccer's side. |
so you would roll over and let soccer take it all?
rugby league parents are looking for other sports for their kids to play, the Polynesians are big kids and earlier this year there was talk about setting up a separate class of junior game as parents are worried about their kids playing against the larger polynesian kids.
Polynesians (with rare exceptions) wil never take to our game. They have size and strength yes. Skill - no. Fatui Attata ring any bells?
I am no advocate for expansion and all the concessions that new clubs will receive, I love our game and can see the need for the expansion to grow and secure the future of our game, as a parent I can also see the need to offer as many sports to our children as possible, especially team sports.
The sydney swans have never gained a great deal of support as what self respecting man would barrack for a team called the swans? really, standing at the ground shouting at the top of their lungs "go swannies"??? why not just put on a dress and head of to the ballet! |
The Sydney Swans have basically been bankrolled by the AFL since the year they moved to Sydney.
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sq3
Joined: 30 Mar 2004
Location: Gold Coast/Tampa
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Jack - I think you do need to take a chill pill and settle down - just a bit.
League will never go away - it is going from strength to strength and is a true international game.
Up here junior Legaue clubs are growing - big time - and you do have schools that play it as a subject - PBC etc., and this is where some of the NRL stars come from (Benji Marshall etc.,)
Soccer will NEVER overtake AFL in Australia - period.
We are very similar to the US model where we grow up playing and following a contact based football code.
MLS is crumbling in the USA and the NFL is going from strength to strength.
When one sports presenter was asked if he would be watching the soccer (yes the US do still call it soccer) hsi reply was - I would rather stick pins in my eyes !!!
That just about sums it up for soccer in the USA - especially after the failed Beckham experiment.
We do need the AFL to be seen as a true national sport and have less teams in Melbourne - this is progression.
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Coaches give you direction but skills win you matches. |
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